Which vitamin E supplement do you/would you prefer, Healthnatura’s or Haidut’s or something else?

[Logan-]

How would this be properly dissolved and used as a spray? Ethanol, distilled water and heat?

Ethanol seems sensible. Cheap vodka works for most substances in combination with heat but I never followed through to make this (VES) a topical.

"...soluble in chloroform (50 mg/ml) or ethanol. It is practically insoluble in water; but it is soluble in ether, acetone, chloroform, and vegetable oils. It is unstable to alkaline conditions."

Vegetable oil = coconut oil?

I've been using Tocovit because of the "impurities."

Vitamin E succinate decreases melanoma size by 650% in vivo

I have already posted a study about vitamin E succinate (VES) beeing able to decrease liver carcinoma by 77% (Vitamin E Succinate Very Effective Against Liver Carcinoma ,acetate Form Increases It) There have previously been studies on VES and melanoma in vitro and they all showed decreases in...

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[Logan-]

The title quote comes from this study: Effect of vitamin E succinate on inflammatory cytokines induced by high-intensity interval training

Study on rats. HED 300-400mg, I think: "vitamin E succinate supplementation (60 mg/kg/day) was conducted for 6 weeks."

Again: "vitamin E inhibits NF-κB activation, with the greatest inhibition seen with the succinate form. [18]"

But it's actually a link to Vitamin E and NF-kappaB activation: a review

VII. SUMMARY Numerous studies, both in vitro and in vivo, have been published examining the effects of vitamin E on NF‐kB activation. Most of these have observed an inhibition with higher levels of vitamin E. Some studies have observed a greater inhibition with the succinate form. At this time, it is not clear if the inhibition of NF‐kB activation of vitamin E is from decreased oxidative stress and/or one of vitamin E’s nonantioxidant functions.

And then I found this in there:

"The succinate form was also more active in HL‐60 cells: a‐tocopheryl succinate inhibited NF‐kB activation in the presence of absence of vitamin D3, whereas a‐tocopheryl acetate only was effective in the presence of vitamin D3"

"The capacity of vitamin E succinate to enhance the differentiation produced by vitamin D3, which contrasts with vitamin E acetate, appears to be due to the accumulation of the succinate form of vitamin E by HL-60 cells to a much greater extent than the accumulation of vitamin E acetate."

The linked study was in vitro but it wasn't a misadvertisement:

"Vitamin E succinate and other antioxidant compounds (ie butylated hydroxyanisole, b-carotene and lipoic acid) used alone had no significant effect on the differentiation of HL-60 cells; however, these agents markedly increased the differentiation produced by vitamin D3."

Induction of the differentiation of HL-60 promyelocytic leukemia cells by vitamin E and other antioxidants in combination with low levels of vitamin D3: possible relationship to NF-kB

Interesting that a vitamin D deficiency would decrease the effectiveness of certain kinds of vitamin E...

@Mauritio

VES -the one vitamin e to rule them all

"Vitamin E inhibits the activation of NF‐kB, with the greatest inhibition seen with the succinate form."

The title quote comes from this study: Effect of vitamin E succinate on inflammatory cytokines induced by high-intensity interval training Study on rats. HED 300-400mg, I think: "vitamin E succinate supplementation (60 mg/kg/day) was conducted for 6 weeks." Again: "vitamin E inhibits NF-κB...

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[Logan-]

Very interesting study that shows Vitamin E succinate to decrease hepatocellular carcinoma by 77% ! It was actually caused/increased by vitamin E acetate .
I included the whole results section from the abstract ,because every point actually deserves it's own discussion .

Also vitamin A and D deficiency caused tumor increases . The tumors numbers increased by 6 fold ! Still let's me doubt the whole "Poison A+D " thing even more.

Next it confirms the detrimental effects that PUFA has! Simply replacing the soy in the diet with casein protein or dextrin sugar, reduced the carcinomas to almost nothing!
This is probably the mechanism of action of Vitamin E succinate as it protects from PUFA . Interesting that Vitamin E acetate doesnt do that .
It might also have to with the succinate they consumed which inhibits FFAs and is thus anti cancer .

@haidut actually posted a study showing that vitamin E acetate was able to prevent calcification, but he said that acetate form is of lower quality. Plus theres no reason the succinate form can't treat the calcification and as we saw in this study it is actually anti cancer as opposed to acetate. So if somebody tried to replicate the results of that study I would always go with vitmain E succinate instead of acetate.





"Elevated dietary tocopheryl acetate (E-Ac) caused a marked increase in liver size and in AfB1-induced HCCs in rainbow trout. 2.) Poor diets increased the HCC incidence. 3.) Elevated dietary tocopheryl succinate (E-Su) nearly eliminated HCC development in fish fed complete diets. Tocopheryl succinate in poor diets reduced HCCs by 77% compared to tocopheryl acetate diets. 4.) Trans-retinoic acid also reduced HCC incidence. 5.) Vitamins A and D deficiency caused tumor increases but had no effect on liver size. 6.) The use of casein and dextrin in the place of soybean textured vegetable protein, in poor diets nearly eliminated the HCC risk. 7.) Trout sera showed all three vitamin forms; free α-tocopherol (E-OH), tocopheryl acetate (E-Ac) and tocopheryl succinate (E-Su), from diets containing any of these vitamin analogues, suggesting both de-esterification and trans-esterification. 8.) E-Su is discussed in the light of an anti-cancer agent that is non toxic to normal tissue but that cohorts to it are needed."

"
HCC numbers increased by 10 fold in 10 months. As early as 6 weeks on the diets the livers were becoming pale and enlarged. At 6 months on the highest E-Ac diets (16.25 gm/Kg diet) livers were twice as large as the controls. Liver enlargement and jaundice occurred whether aflatoxin was in the diet or not."

Hepatocellular carcinomas are promoted by tocopheryl acetate but eliminated by tocopheryl succinate - ScienceDirect

Dietary RRR-α-tocopherol succinate attenuates lipopolysaccharide-induced inflammatory cytokines secretion in broiler chicks | British Journal of Nutrition | Cambridge Core

Vitmain E succinate is anti-endotoxin! It reduces many markers of inflammation that are triggered by endotoxin /LPS .
Interestingly they tested vitamin E acetate again ,but only said that succinate was effective. My guess is because acetate just wasn't effective ,as in the OP study .

I am currently still using the nutricology brand and its the only one that gives me desired results without toxic /allergic effects.
I still liked tocovit but I had a slight allergic reaction ,like swelling of the upper eye lid (just a little) increased puffiness and eye bags I liked how I felt ,but these symptoms mean that it doesnt agree with my body long term. I dont have these symptoms with vitamin e succinate!

I ordered this one , its super cheap and has no other ingridients. Also they make it super easy for you if you want to request a coa .

Acid Succinate Powder (Vitamin E)

Vitamin E succinate inhibits the function of androgen receptor and the expression of prostate-specific antigen in prostate cancer cells

What do you guys think of this ?? Its only in vitro. But to me it doesnt really add up .

Firstly prostate cancer is probably caused by estrogen and treated by DHT .
DHT may treat prostate cancer, estrogen (E2) strongly promotes it – To Extract Knowledge from Matter
Drostanolone (a DHT isomer) may treat prostate cancer – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

So Vitamin E succinate causes a 18% drop in prostate cancer.
If it was lowering the androgen receptor density and functionally it would be like lowering DHT and increasing estrogens power , which should actually increase prostate cancer probability.

So it must have a different or even the opposite action of what they say . Plus itd like to see an in vivo study of that kind.

I asked Ray on the androgen study this was his reply . So as I guessed theres no concerne taking it .


"In vitro cell studies aren’t relevant to its effects in a person. It has anti-inflammatory effects that would account for lowering PSA."

Vitamin E Succinate Very Effective Against Liver Carcinoma ,acetate Form Increases It

Very interesting study that shows Vitamin E succinate to decrease hepatocellular carcinoma by 77% ! It was actually caused/increased by vitamin E acetate . I included the whole results section from the abstract ,because every point actually deserves it's own discussion . Also vitamin A and D...

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[lamassu]

No issues with the Bella Terra vitamin E oil

 

[Logan-]

I am wondering if it's OK to take vitamin E succinate (dry vitamin E) as my only vitamin E supplement.

I have tried many different brands of the mixed vitamin E, and I always feel sick/toxic from them. I have tried them mixed into olive oil first, eaten with food, had small amounts, but I always get this reaction.

Vitamin E succinate gives me no problems but it is only the alpha form (d-Alpha Tocopheryl).

Would it be OK to take it, or maybe am I risking an imbalance in the other forms of vitamin E, and I'd be better off taking none?

RP recommends mixed tocopherols. He thinks alpha tocopherol works only as an anti oxidant
and does not have the other protective properties of anti-clot, anti- estrogen etc.
I do not remember him saying anything about adverse effects of using d-alpha-tocopherol only.
RP himself stopped using vitamin E. Need for E depends on PUFA storage and intake.
He thinks quality of vitamin E has changed since soy oil industry got into making vitamin E.
I have used both d-alpha-tocopherol and mixed tocopherol ( GNC brand) and there is
better result from mixed tocopherols. In my experience, benefits from blocking the PUFA release
by Niacinamide is way higher than vitamin E of both kinds.
From google search it looks like there are tons of studies on anti-cancer property of
d-alpha tocopherol succinate. In theory alpha-tocopherol and succinate should have same benefits
but these papers seems to indicate succinate has something special in it.
My guess is that processing of E succinate from soy is better than regular d-alpha-tocopherol.
I think it would be a good idea to shoot an email to RP asking if
there is any harm in using only d-alpha tocopherol and what is his thoughts
on Anti-cancer research using Vitamin E succinate.

Hi Bluebell,

Below is Ray's answer to one of my question regarding the different forms of vit E:

" Vitamin E was originally identified as a fertility factor in female rats, and then as an antiestrogenic, antiinflammatory, regulator of coagulation, that protected against the toxic effects of polyunsaturated vegetable oils. Market forces hated the idea that estrogen and PUFA had related toxic effects, and created the substitution of "antioxidation" as the definition of vitamin E. The esters aren't as well absorbed as the plain vitamin E, and aren't as active as antioxidants, but the combination with some substances, as in the succinate, can improve the regulatory functions of vitamin E. By regulating the expression of genes involved in inflammation and estrogen action, vitamin E reduces some harmful processes of oxidation, but the scavenger action is a separate function of the molecule. Tocotrienol has been described as a colorless substance. I think the color in the original vitamin E preparations was the result of a charge transfer complex between small amounts of vitamin K and tocopherols. The impurities, including the very long chain saturated fatty acids and alcohols, were probably important for some of the effects originally studied.

This is where everything become more and more confusing.....
Because during my email exchanges with Ray during the last few weeks, he made it clear that the vitamin E he was using was light in color (not dark) and, like he said in his article you quoted, "labeled d-alphatocopherol" but not "d-alphatocopherol with mixed tocopherol"...
Below it's one of his response to my email regarding the vitamin E he used in the past:

" The vitamin E we had in the lab was from Sigma Chemical Co., and the source materials at that time were more varied, probably including wheat germ oil. It was very viscous and light colored. I think it contained the waxy saturated polycosanols and octacosanol. If a product is chosen for the largest number of international units in the smallest capsule, there will be a minimum of soy oil. "

I think that the impurities, which Ray talked about, was probably "the waxy saturated polycosanols and octacosanol".
Carlon labs is making an D- alpha tocopherol acetate which can be labelled as "soy-free" since it's a very concentrated and pure source of E.

http://www.fullspectrumhealth.com/shop/ ... _product=1

This vitamin from Carlson is the only one that meets the criteria, but without the mixed toco, he told me above.
It's also the one which was formulated by carlson for the Shute's center in Canada.

I asked Ray Peat about vitamin E succinate and i got this reply.
He did not answer the last part of the question.

This is exactly where things are confusing.
Because even if Ray recommends mixed tocopherols, I always think that he's not really against the d-alpha tocopherol (esterified or not) because, but I may be wrong, the d-alpha toco-form only, and may be especially the (but not only) succinate form like Ray said, have probably better anti-oxydant and hepatic detoxifying properties than the mixed ones.
This is the main reason why, I think, nobody could have a straight answer from him regarding a specific brand of E neither a specific type and dosage of it (d-alpha only, mixed toco, esterified, not esterified ect....).Ray himself continues to use 100UI of vitamin E ( he told me that he put it on skin). Once again, context seems to be everything.
If one is following Ray's recommendation regarding food choices and avoidance of PUFA as much as possible, a single dose, weekly, of 400 UI d-alpha-tocopherol only would be probably safe without any big risk of depleting the other tocopherols too much ( especially the gamma ones).

Below is one of Maret G.Traber's view on the differences between alpha- and gamma- form of E:

"Identification of the various types of tocopherols and the availability of synthetic isomers were instrumental in defining particular effects, suggesting specific functions of the individual types and isomers. α-Tocopherol, the prominent component of the vitamin E complex, is unique in many respects. A sorting process exists only for the natural RRR-α-tocopherol; α-TTP-preferentially incorporates only the natural RRR-α-tocopherol into plasma. γ- and δ-tocopherols can practically substitute for α-tocopherol in in vitro antioxidant action and partially in the resorption-gestation assay, the differences being primarily due to the α-tocopherol-specific sorting system. An analogous in vivo lack of equivalence exists between RRR-α-tocopherol and all rac α-tocopherol. The sorting process is highly specific and does not tolerate the alteration in stereochemistry at C2. This preference prevents α-tocopherol from rapid ω-oxidation and thus keeps the excretion of the α-CEHC degradation product low. Only excess α-tocopherol seems to be converted to α-CEHC, whereas ingested γ- and δ-tocopherol may be almost quantitatively converted to their CEHCs and excreted in the urine. These findings suggest that there is a specific, molecular role for RRR-α-tocopherol.

α-Tocopherol also appears unique in regulating phosphorylation cascades. Such a role may be important in heart disease where cell adhesion, proliferation, and oxidant production may all be modified through vitamin E-sensitive pathways.
γ-Tocopherol is unique in being a potent nucleophile and generating a metabolite, γ-CEHC, with an intriguing pharmacological function, natriuresis. The former may contribute to the scavenging of electrophilic mutagens, the latter to the prevention of cardiovascular disease by lowering blood pressure."

Vitamin E Succinate lowered my elevated liver enzymes to normal in one month using 800iu a day of vitaminshoppe brand.. nothing else ever worked

800 iu a day of vitamin E succinate.. I started a very low vitamin A diet to see if I have improvement in other health parameters and partly doing this as an experiment because E is supposed to be antagonistic to vitamin A so we will see

Are you still taking E succinate at 800iu?

Yes I wanted to add that my blood sugars with the elevated liver enzymes and my confirmed fatty liver by a ultrasound have normalized into normal range otherwise no other effects from supplement.. I’m impressed because I have tried many things for liver suggested on this forum with mild improvement but not effective like E succinate

Great study on Vitamin E Succinate at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2394445/pdf/89-6601360a.pdf

Succinic acid has a quick and large effect on reducing blood glucose, meaning I assume it’s an FFA inhibitor, and improves glucose utilisation, which I think also improves fatty liver.

I have the same experience about vitamin e in general as the OP .
I can't take any other vitmain e I've tried without getting weird allergy symptoms or feeling toxic . Not even haiduts vitamin e eventhough it has some benefits .

Also I can take the vitamin e succinate! And it's great ,it seems to improve my well beeing and decreases liver related symptoms ,but only for some time . I ve never really gone higher then 400iu , so I ll order the pure bulk version of it and try 800-1500IU.

So for me it's a good vitamin e to take , and im glad that it does not deplete any other kind of vitamin e .
Alpha-tocopherol does NOT deplete gamma-tocopherol

If somebody wants to make a more oldschool kind of vitamin e ,one could add policosanols as they were responsible for many of the benefits reported from vitamin e in the 1950s.
I have ordered the policosanols and will try to add them to it .

One thing I'd like to know. Does vitamin e succinate have the anti-pufa effects that ray talks about ?

I had no luck finding those references. Perhaps if I had access to a US library, I might find something.

It's good NOW carries an assortment of vitamin E products. We have to avoid the synthetic versions, the ones in PUFA oils, and which blend is good for the condition we are taking vitamin E for. The d-alpha and the gamma versions each have their properties, and a blend that contains both of them is a minimum for me. White the beta and delta isomers are not well known in terms of proven benefits, it's still good to have them in the blend in lower percentages. i don't really know too much about the tocotrienol's benefits, or if they really are beneficial, so I wouldn't miss them if they're not in the blend.

I wish I understood more about vitamin E. It seems a hard one to find consensus on (alpha-only v blend v +tocotrienols). I do seem to remember Dr Peat is not a fan of tocotrienols, I can't remember why, but I've not used them in my E supplements. One thing that seems consistent is that Dry E (succinate) is usually only offered with d-alpha form, even the more expensive brands. One would assume there's science to back it up-- maybe something to do with succinic acid added that makes it more physiologically beneficial with only alpha-d? I don't know. Thanks for your input yerrag!

Is It OK To Only Have Vitamin E Succinate

I am wondering if it's OK to take vitamin E succinate (dry vitamin E) as my only vitamin E supplement. I have tried many different brands of the mixed vitamin E, and I always feel sick/toxic from them. I have tried them mixed into olive oil first, eaten with food, had small amounts, but I...

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[Logan-]

Vitamin E succinate induces Fas-mediated apoptosis in estrogen receptor-negative
human breast cancer cells.
Turley JM, Fu T, Ruscetti FW, Mikovits JA, Bertolette DC 3rd, Birchenall-Roberts
MC.
Laboratory of Leukocyte Biology, Division of Basic Sciences, National Cancer
Institute, Frederick, Maryland 21702, USA.

"Vitamin E succinate (VES), a derivative of the fat-soluble vitamin
D-alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E), inhibited growth and induced apoptotic cell death
of estrogen receptor-negative human breast cancer cells. VES-induced apoptosis in
MDA-MB-231 and SKBR-3 cells occurred through a Fas pathway. Total protein levels
of the Fas receptor (Fas; APO-1/CD-95) and the Fas ligand (Fas-L) were increased
following VES treatment. In addition, VES increased cell surface Fas expression.
Fas-neutralizing antibodies and Fas-L antisense oligonucleotides blocked
VES-induced apoptosis. The presence of Fas-L antisense oligonucleotides also
completely blocked the VES-mediated increase in Fas-L protein expression. These
data indicate a role for Fas signaling in VES-mediated apoptotic cell death of
human breast cancer cells. These findings also suggest that VES may be of
clinical use in the treatment of aggressive human breast cancers, particularly
those that are refractory to antiestrogen therapy."

Vitamin E succinate induces Fas-mediated apoptosis.....

Vitamin E succinate induces Fas-mediated apoptosis in estrogen receptor-negative human breast cancer cells. Turley JM, Fu T, Ruscetti FW, Mikovits JA, Bertolette DC 3rd, Birchenall-Roberts MC. Laboratory of Leukocyte Biology, Division of Basic Sciences, National Cancer Institute, Frederick...

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[Highserotonin90]

It seems that tocotrienols (unsaturated tail) have a higher antioxidant potential than tocopherols (saturated), however I would like to have confirmations or denials from those who have reliable sources. Personally, I'm using an acetate form of D alpha tocopherol isolate and in my context it seems to help me, in powder form. I'm now waiting for the liquid form in extra virgin olive oil from Now foods.

 

[Logan-]

Personally, I'm using an acetate form of D alpha tocopherol isolate and in my context it seems to help me, in powder form. I'm now waiting for the liquid form in extra virgin olive oil from Now foods.

You could easily make it liquid in your home, by blending the powder in EVOO in a blender. That way you can also adjust the dose/viscosity. No need to pay extra to companies.