Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

[Fractality]

I have looked at them but am ambivalent. Many of them are molecules with chloride or fluoride and have hepatic side effects. Most of them have not been tested long enough to be certain of safety. And when safer androgens like androsterone exist (that can be combined with anti-catabolic like pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA) it is hard to see much benefit in making a product with a SARM. But I keep an eye on that research for sure.

Do you know if LGD-4033/Ligandrol is one of the SARMs with chloride/fluoride molecules attached? I can't tell.

 

[haidut]

Do you know if LGD-4033/Ligandrol is one of the SARMs with chloride/fluoride molecules attached? I can't tell.

Yes, it is. It has not one but 2 trifluoromethyl groups (so 6 fluorine atoms total per molecule). For comparison, most fluorinated or chlorinated steroids have 1-2 such additional atoms.
Trifluoromethyl - Wikipedia

 

[Fractality]

Yes, it is. It has not one but 2 trifluoromethyl groups (so 6 fluorine atoms total per molecule). For comparison, most fluorinated or chlorinated steroids have 1-2 such additional atoms.
Trifluoromethyl - Wikipedia

Damn, I used that compound for 2 months several years ago. Is that chemical structure more hepatoxic than methylated oral steroids like dianabol/powerdrol? My understanding has been that the SARMs are less toxic than those. I get my comprehensive labwork back this week so I will see my liver enzyme values.

 

[haidut]

Damn, I used that compound for 2 months several years ago. Is that chemical structure more hepatoxic than methylated oral steroids like dianabol/powerdrol? My understanding has been that the SARMs are less toxic than those. I get my comprehensive labwork back this week so I will see my liver enzyme values.

Don't know much about that chemical, so I would do the tests as you mentioned and see what comes back.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30029727

The Role of Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in Skeletal Muscle.
Sato K1, Iemitsu M2.
Author information
Abstract
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a precursor of sex steroid hormones and is converted to testosterone and estradiol. Normally, androgens and estrogens produced adrenal cortex, testis, and ovary; however, recent studies revealed androgens and estrogens are synthesized by peripheral tissues such as brain, skin, liver, kidney, bone, etc. We found skeletal muscles are also capable of synthesizing androgens and estrogens from DHEA. Circulating DHEA provides substrates required for conversion into potent androgens and estrogens in peripheral tissues. Sex steroid hormone administration has important roles: one is that the enhancement of protein synthesis and anabolism, resulting in muscle growth and increased muscle strength. The other is improvement of hyperglycemia through the activation of glucose signaling pathway in skeletal muscle as well as acceleration of muscle lipid metabolism that increase peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPARα) and PPAR delta (PPARδ). We introduce the effect of DHEA and sex steroid hormones administration on muscle glucose and lipid metabolisms as well as the effect of sex steroid hormone on the muscle hypertrophy.

 

[haidut]

The Role of Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in Skeletal Muscle. - PubMed - NCBI

The Role of Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in Skeletal Muscle.
Sato K1, Iemitsu M2.
Author information
Abstract
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a precursor of sex steroid hormones and is converted to testosterone and estradiol. Normally, androgens and estrogens produced adrenal cortex, testis, and ovary; however, recent studies revealed androgens and estrogens are synthesized by peripheral tissues such as brain, skin, liver, kidney, bone, etc. We found skeletal muscles are also capable of synthesizing androgens and estrogens from DHEA. Circulating DHEA provides substrates required for conversion into potent androgens and estrogens in peripheral tissues. Sex steroid hormone administration has important roles: one is that the enhancement of protein synthesis and anabolism, resulting in muscle growth and increased muscle strength. The other is improvement of hyperglycemia through the activation of glucose signaling pathway in skeletal muscle as well as acceleration of muscle lipid metabolism that increase peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPARα) and PPAR delta (PPARδ). We introduce the effect of DHEA and sex steroid hormones administration on muscle glucose and lipid metabolisms as well as the effect of sex steroid hormone on the muscle hypertrophy.

This is the same group of authors that published other studies we discussed on the forum in regards to low dose DHEA raising intra-muscular DHT levels and improving glucose metabolism by that mechanism.
Low dose DHEA restores insulin sensitivity by increasing DHT

 

[Texon]

Just being nig picky, testosterone in injectibles or any other anabolic for that matter is not bound to PUFA but usually suspended in it ie and test ester dissolved in peanut oil for example.

In my case the testosterone ester? is suspended in cottonseed oil.

 

[Momado965]

It stimulates more progesterone production. Anything that stimulated thyroid function, including thyroid and progesterone stimulates steroid synthesis. Pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA stimulate their own production which is probably one reason why Peat recommends using them and not downstream steroids which tend to inhibit steroid synthesis. For instance both T and DHT tend to block steroid metabolism through a negative feedback mechanism. The more downstream a hormone is the more specific its function and the higher the chance that it triggers negative feedback mechanisms.

Now of course you mean bio DHT in doses that are far highet than 25mg oral dose right?

 

[LeeLemonoil]

I remember that SARMs have been discussed negatively mostly on RPF, and I’m no proponent or a user or have deeper knowledge about them.

But there is this „newer“ one coded YK-11 that seems structurally close to DHT and is a potent myostsatin-inhibitor

 

[haidut]

Now of course you mean bio DHT in doses that are far highet than 25mg oral dose right?

Any steroid activating the AR is likely to trigger negative feedback when used in high enough doses, and the suppressive dose depends on each steroid.

 

[Texon]

I could be wrong but let me try, I think this is just based on contrarian endocrinology, you supplement androsterone so, for example, the body will down regulate 5-alpha-reductase since it doesn't need it anymore to convert androstenedione into androsterone (already supplied).
FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)
"and for those who still think what andro does - just look a this chart. Hormonal Charts & Pathways
as you can see andro inhibits 5 alpha reductase. Because androstenedione converts to androsterone via 5 alpha reductase."

Btw there are many older posts by haidut and mails from Ray which are very cautious about supplementing downstream steroids. Similarly haidut has spoken about preferring addressing steroids imbalances through the brain (if possible) as it is the master regulator.

How would one regulate steroids through the brain if you know. I'm about to pm @haidut for suggestions about coming off a lower dose injectable trt since I have done it cold turkey and feel like ***t currently.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Can a few hundred mils of caffeine boost the anabolic effect of oxandrolone?

 

[Glexx]

Below labs results after just using 5-10 mg dhea and some keto dht up to 2-5 mg ( topical)

 

[vulture]

Below labs results after just using 5-10 mg dhea and some keto dht up to 2-5 mg ( topical)

WTF. How do you feel? it seems you need to lower dosages if you want to keep DHT in range

 

[Wagner83]

Below labs results after just using 5-10 mg dhea and some keto dht up to 2-5 mg ( topical)

Here you had posted those same labs and didn't mention the same supplements:

Hi,

in the last year i made experiment with androsterone and keto-dht (which i stopped bc it was to stimulating). I used to use just 3-4 drops of andro daily at max. And i just want to share my labs ( in attachment). At this time i used some dhea on my skin, but not so regular and use daily up to 100 mcg of cynoplus.
On labs i have very low vit d. It was 17.02. End that winter was very dark. Btw my testo and mt dht was very high

 

[Yair Rodriguez]

Any steroid activating the AR is likely to trigger negative feedback when used in high enough doses, and the suppressive dose depends on each steroid.

Can we use 11keto dht+ progestene to match this study?

 

[Peater Pan]

Re an above post about oral vs topical vitamin D:

Vitamin D orally comes with a load of excipient. Microcrystalline cellulose and related fillers. They are very bad, and I think responsible for a lot of digestive reactions.

It's difficult to get "pure" D3 for topical use. But I know nothing better than vitamin D3 and calcium for fixing a lot of problems. I seem to feel a lot better with some D3 and eggshell calcium.

Life Extension Liquid Vitamin D3 2000 IU/drop in MCT

 

[Peater Pan]

Over the past 3.5 years my weight has gone from 177 to 227. Many people on here know my history of excessive urination and stopping exercise. I've increased muscle mass by 30lbs +. I've done high doses of androsterone for sleep consistently, low dose Pansterone couple days a week, and I use progesterone 1x a week for recovery purposes. I've never noticed any high estrogen effects from any of these and I continue to gain mass; however many people think I only look 190-200lbs. There very well could be mass and done density gains as I've grown 1/2 inch in height as well. In my experience, the substances that destroy my metabolism is processed food, high starch, and the wrong physical activity. This combination has worked well for me. The fear of high estrogen I think can be overblown in my opinion, therefore, I like your research on progesterone to be a powerful and support substance...especially for a male.

Androsterone helps w/sleep? In what doses?

 

[Velve921]

Androsterone helps w/sleep? In what doses?

Back then I had experimented with 8-10 drops before bed time.

Now that my metabolism has improved over the last couple years, I don’t do the same. I think it’s all ways good to start with the minimal effective dose when experimenting.

1 drop is probably a good starting place for many people.

 

[Peater Pan]

Back then I had experimented with 8-10 drops before bed time.

Now that my metabolism has improved over the last couple years, I don’t do the same. I think it’s all ways good to start with the minimal effective dose when experimenting.

1 drop is probably a good starting place for many people.

Thank you. Orally?