Saturated Fat (palmitate) Does NOT Activate TLR4

[haidut]

@haidut
The cocoa butter normalized hepatic endotoxin levels yes, but not by blocking absorption, by upregulating detoxification:

"...CB normalized ethanol-increased hepatic endotoxin level in association with upregulation of an endotoxin detoxifying enzyme, argininosuccinate synthase 1 (ASS1).”

Also cocoa butter was unable to normalize serum endotoxin level meanwhile MCT was:

“Ethanol feeding elevated serum endotoxin level, which was normalized by MCT but not CB.”

I dont think this shows that Cocoa butter increases endotoxin absorption per say, as the ethanol induced gut permeability is what is causing the leakage of endotoxin into the blood stream but these two pieces together are showing that the cocoa butter may be binding the endotoxin in chylomicrons and shielding the body from endotoxins effect as well as facilitating detoxification in the case of the ethanol induced permeability. The MCT seems to be directly reestablishing the gut barrier directly so the mechanism is different for that yet still beneficial.

Its not these direct studies that I was refering to, to show LC SAFA increasing endotoxin absorption, I was coming from the point of view that was already well established via the lipid raft proviced by chylomicrons with SAFA. These studies where more of an acceptance of that fact and then an explanation as to why thats actually not a bad thing about LC SAFA. The combination of MCT and LC SAFA seems to me to be a pretty strong endotoxin protection system. I think this is why people do well on low carb high fat. The fat re-energizes and protects the liver/ damaged small intestine, while the avoidance of starches/grains etc. Prevents fermentation by pathogenic bacteria. At this point I dont think CICO every made anyone obese or even grossly overweight, I think inflammation and hormones have.

On a seperate note, what pathologies are associated with fat over 20% and less than 10%?

Extremely low fat diets have been show in some animal studies to produce neurodegenerative diseases like animal models of ALS and Huntington. However, many of those studies compensated for the decreased fat with increased protein, which can become toxic beyound a certain level. One proposed explanation is that too low fat seems to negatively influence steroidogenesis, which could explain the demyelination seen in those animal studies.
Too much fat reliably leads to obesity as I mentioned in another post and Peat has confirmed when people asked him directly, even if it is entirely saturated fat.
Only Dietary Fat, Not Protein Or Sugar (sucrose), Drives Obesity
If there is also high cortisol then this would translate to mostly visceral obesity, which puts strain on the heart, lungs, and spleen. Also, obesity leads to chronically elevated lipolysis and the more of that stored/released fat is in the form of PUFA the worse the results for health. Interestingly, that study above on fat and obesity found that optimal fat intake is about 20%, so not fat off from what I mentioned about the 15%.

 

[raypeatclips]

Extremely low fat diets have been show in some animal studies to produce neurodegenerative diseases like animal models of ALS and Huntington. However, many of those studies compensated for the decreased fat with increased protein, which can become toxic beyound a certain level. One proposed explanation is that too low fat seems to negatively influence steroidogenesis, which could explain the demyelination seen in those animal studies.
Too much fat reliably leads to obesity as I mentioned in another post and Peat has confirmed when people asked him directly, even if it is entirely saturated fat.
Only Dietary Fat, Not Protein Or Sugar (sucrose), Drives Obesity
If there is also high cortisol then this would translate to mostly visceral obesity, which puts strain on the heart, lungs, and spleen. Also, obesity leads to chronically elevated lipolysis and the more of that stored/released fat is in the form of PUFA the worse the results for health. Interestingly, that study above on fat and obesity found that optimal fat intake is about 20%, so not fat off from what I mentioned about the 15%.

Is your only issue with higher fat diets obesity? I.e if there is no obesity you don't have issues? My recent experiments with raising fat levels is accompanied by weight loss, for some reason I'm not sure why yet.

I wonder if this is related to the calorific nature of fat causing obesity by simply giving someone an excess of calories as a higher fat diet would, being the most calorific macronutrient. If a person has a higher fat diet, but calories are the matched to equal a person with less fat, I wonder how weight levels would respond.

 

[haidut]

Is your only issue with higher fat diets obesity? I.e if there is no obesity you don't have issues? My recent experiments with raising fat levels is accompanied by weight loss, for some reason I'm not sure why yet.

I wonder if this is related to the calorific nature of fat causing obesity by simply giving someone an excess of calories as a higher fat diet would, being the most calorific macronutrient. If a person has a higher fat diet, but calories are the matched to equal a person with less fat, I wonder how weight levels would respond.

It is not only obesity that is concerning. There is also the potential for enhanced lipolysis to cause kidney issues and also blocking sugar oxidation. The latter occurs even with saturated fats, but is much less pronounced compared to PUFA.
Why glucose oxidation is preferable to fatty acid oxidation
Saturated Fats And Mitochondrias
"...Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism."

 

[paymanz]

Peat has said up to 50% of the diet could be fat if it is something like hydrogenated coconut oil, and has otherwise suggested a 33/33/33 macro diet a few times.



Why would Peat suggest a 33/33/33 diet if 33 percent of saturated fat was so damaging, do you think?

yes i almost forgot that.maybe he has problem with higher than 50%.

 

[paymanz]

eating macros according to cravings makes more sense to me. sometimes only carbs are satisfying , sometimes fat....

 

[rei]

I believe a high fat intake necessitates fat-based metabolism to be healthy. This necessarily involves adequate periods of fasting. If you want to eat 3 times a day (+possible snack) then a considerable amounts of fat will cause problems as you are constantly in insulin-driven sugar metabolism and don't get the fat burning going.

On intermittent fasting -style diet saturated fat is a very optimal fuel.

 

[CLASH]

@haidut
I’m not so sure that diets higher in fat than 20% cause obesity. It seems most primates, ruminant animals and carnivores eat higher fat diets overall (much higher than 20%, atleast from what I’ve read). Also, a lot of people lose significant amounts of weight on high fat, lower carb diets and do so rapidly (I’m not promoting this as optimal tho).

As with @raypeatclips a higher fat diet of 30-40% of kcals has leaned me out, increased my energy/ libido/ motivation, decreased my anxiety, stopped my hyperhidrosis for the most part and got rid of my brain fog and blood sugar crashes almost entirely.I have also seen it do similar things for family members that I have recommended it to and to women that I have dated who had anxiety and libido issues. I know it is n=1 but with around 120-140g of fat a day, 300-400g of sugar from fruit and 120g of protein a day I have actually been losing belly fat (even though I was already lean to start). I am currently at around 10% body fat, despite the high fat intake. I actually dropped into this range because of the high fat intake and as I started increasing coconut oil, so that its in even proportion with beef tallow, I’ve lost even more weight and my digestion has improved significantly. Also, this is all happening while living on night shift perpetually (even on days of I dont switch back to a day schedule) and only lifting weights 3x a week for 45 min on average (no cardio ever).

I think there is more to fats than just an energy source. You touched on steroidogenesis and brain function, I think those are big components. Theres also the digestions aspect (which are varied with strong effects in my experience), the structural function of fats, the detoxification function (specifically related to endotoxin), the stabilizing of blood sugar, and the anti-fibrotic/ liver protecting effects of fat (all of these are in reference to saturated fatty acids not PUFA of course).

Perhaps the shifting to fatty acid oxidation in some cases is beneficial, i.e. muscles oxidizing fat so that central organs and the nervous system can utilize glucose. In my experience and it seems like others in this forum as well, sugar tends to be burned quickly and cause blood sugar crashes (i dont think this causes diabetes tho, quite the opposite, when I was high carb low fat my Hemoglobin A1c was actually below the reference range, I havent tested it in this new context tho). I think what is happening is the body is oxidising sugar relatively quickly and the adaptive hormones are raising to release the glycogen and fatty acids from storage to meet the deficit. I think fats delay this effect by slowing down the absorption of the sugar amd providing a steady stream of sugar release while also providing energy substrate to tissues in a lower order of function in the body to spare glucose for tissues/ organs of a higher order function. As for the obesity effect, I think fat is a bystander. I think inflammation (small intestine bacterial issues) is the cause at the core.

With all this, I am not advocating keto or low carb diets. I am advocating more of a high sugar (from fruit, I dont think cane sugar is so good anymore after experimenting with it for a brief period of time), high saturated fatty acid diet with adequate protein; maybe something like 40/40/20 (c/f/p) or 50/30/20 (C/f/p). Also, I am not advocating high PUFA content, I think the fats should be coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter and butter (if you can handle the hormones in butter)

 

[haidut]

@haidut
I’m not so sure that diets higher in fat than 20% cause obesity. It seems most primates, ruminant animals and carnivores eat higher fat diets overall (much higher than 20%, atleast from what I’ve read). Also, a lot of people lose significant amounts of weight on high fat, lower carb diets and do so rapidly (I’m not promoting this as optimal tho).

As with @raypeatclips a higher fat diet of 30-40% of kcals has leaned me out, increased my energy/ libido/ motivation, decreased my anxiety, stopped my hyperhidrosis for the most part and got rid of my brain fog and blood sugar crashes almost entirely.I have also seen it do similar things for family members that I have recommended it to and to women that I have dated who had anxiety and libido issues. I know it is n=1 but with around 120-140g of fat a day, 300-400g of sugar from fruit and 120g of protein a day I have actually been losing belly fat (even though I was already lean to start). I am currently at around 10% body fat, despite the high fat intake. I actually dropped into this range because of the high fat intake and as I started increasing coconut oil, so that its in even proportion with beef tallow, I’ve lost even more weight and my digestion has improved significantly. Also, this is all happening while living on night shift perpetually (even on days of I dont switch back to a day schedule) and only lifting weights 3x a week for 45 min on average (no cardio ever).

I think there is more to fats than just an energy source. You touched on steroidogenesis and brain function, I think those are big components. Theres also the digestions aspect (which are varied with strong effects in my experience), the structural function of fats, the detoxification function (specifically related to endotoxin), the stabilizing of blood sugar, and the anti-fibrotic/ liver protecting effects of fat (all of these are in reference to saturated fatty acids not PUFA of course).

Perhaps the shifting to fatty acid oxidation in some cases is beneficial, i.e. muscles oxidizing fat so that central organs and the nervous system can utilize glucose. In my experience and it seems like others in this forum as well, sugar tends to be burned quickly and cause blood sugar crashes (i dont think this causes diabetes tho, quite the opposite, when I was high carb low fat my Hemoglobin A1c was actually below the reference range, I havent tested it in this new context tho). I think what is happening is the body is oxidising sugar relatively quickly and the adaptive hormones are raising to release the glycogen and fatty acids from storage to meet the deficit. I think fats delay this effect by slowing down the absorption of the sugar amd providing a steady stream of sugar release while also providing energy substrate to tissues in a lower order of function in the body to spare glucose for tissues/ organs of a higher order function. As for the obesity effect, I think fat is a bystander. I think inflammation (small intestine bacterial issues) is the cause at the core.

With all this, I am not advocating keto or low carb diets. I am advocating more of a high sugar (from fruit, I dont think cane sugar is so good anymore after experimenting with it for a brief period of time), high saturated fatty acid diet with adequate protein; maybe something like 40/40/20 (c/f/p) or 50/30/20 (C/f/p). Also, I am not advocating high PUFA content, I think the fats should be coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter and butter (if you can handle the hormones in butter)

Everybody is different and I don't see why higher fat intake would be necessarily bad. But all studies so far showed that fat is the only macronutrient that when increased tends to lead to weight gain, and if the ratio is beyound say 25% then fat may make even something like protein contribute to weight gain. If both fat and carb intake is high then that would likely lead to the carbs being converted to fat due to the Randle cycle competition. So, I suspect the people who lost weight on higher fat diet kept their carb intake lower.
But anyways, as I said, everybody is different and should do what works for them.

 

[Wagner83]

Role of the Toll-like receptor 4/NF-kappaB pathway in saturated fatty acid-induced inflammatory changes in the interaction between adipocytes and m... - PubMed - NCBI