Omega-3 Deficiency In Psychiatric Disease, Fish Oil Opinions?

[TreasureVibe]

Hey there. I have a relative who I suspect highly to have Borderline Personality Disorder. According to the following studies, fish oil could give improvements in a person with a disorder like this one. I know however that Dr. Peat doesn't like fish oil at all, and is against PUFA, which I believe omega 3 is.

Detection and treatment of omega-3 fatty acid deficiency in psychiatric practice: Rationale and implementation. - PubMed - NCBI
Omega-3 fatty acid supplementation in adolescents with borderline personality disorder and ultra-high risk criteria for psychosis: a post hoc subgr... - PubMed - NCBI
omega-3 Fatty acid treatment of women with borderline personality disorder: a double-blind, placebo-controlled pilot study. - PubMed - NCBI

Sourced from: Treating Borderline Personality Disorder Without Drugs

What are your thoughts on this study and rationale, and what are your suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[johnwester130]

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Ray Peat

Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

The Great Fish Oil Experiment

I think emotional unstability and depression is definitely cortisol and estrogen.

Vitamin D would be much more needed than omega 3 would be, and sunlight

 

[TreasureVibe]

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Ray Peat

Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

The Great Fish Oil Experiment

I think emotional unstability and depression is definitely cortisol and estrogen.

Vitamin D would be much more needed than omega 3 would be, and sunlight

The person in question already has a vitamin D level that is too high. So what could be useful for him, and in regards to estrogen and cortisol?

 

[johnwester130]

The person in question already has a vitamin D level that is too high. So what could be useful for him, and in regards to estrogen and cortisol?

k2 and vitamin a can bring it down

As for estrogen and cortisol, a basic peat approach can work,

 

[Frankdee20]

You often see this, omega 3 and Psychiatric conditions. It’s not that simple. I tried fish oil for depression, and even 1 gram a day gave me bad insomnia, anxiety, and extreme agitation. Perhaps via Acetylcholine increase. Trial and error man.

 

[LUH 3417]

Breaking news: in the age of aquarians, bipolar beings reported to be magnetic

 

[DavidGardner]

I used to take fish oil for depression. It helped at the time, and I continued taking even during my earliest attempts at Peating. Now I take vitamin E a few times a week, which does the same job of counteracting the effects of omega-6 without creating additional harm like fish oil.

Vitamin E should address estrogen and cortisol issues.

 

[DavidGardner]

Also, consider that most people eat too much PUFA, so they can talk about an omega-3/6 ratio, and it actually means something. If your goal is to minimize PUFA altogether, the concept of using omega-3 to counterbalance omega-6 becomes irrelevant.

 

[TreasureVibe]

I notice that my relative BPD sufferer has something which is unnatural:

This physical sensation which he associates with anxiety, in the middle of his chest. This physical sensation, comes up easily with any trigger, and starts to intensify right after more triggers come. And it slowly spreads like a smear, and then it stays.
What the hell is this physical sensation, and how do we get it turned off?

Also other BPD sufferers have it apparently, as this BPD sufferer in this video talks about it aswell:



Thanks!!

 

[Anabolic]

Any seemingly positive effects from fish oil would be short term and only because it would displace some currently-oxidizing (old) omega-6 pufa stores (think cottonseed oil from potato chips or something he ate as a kid finally undergoing lipid peroxidase)

omega 3 pufa is roughly twice as unsaturated (worse) than omega 6 pufa, and fish oil is even more volatile (closer to its oxidation / spoilage point) than regular soybean oil (crisco, omega 6 pufa)

Use vitamin E (natural form, mixed tocopherols) and cheap coconut oil (store brand, refined, plain, no coconut flavor or smell, non organic) to get the same short term improvement seen in fish oil studies, but in the case of using vitamin e and cocout oil instead of fish oil, you correct the problem (pufa oxidation) permanently, rather than creating a worse off future situation like the studies unknowingly do when they use a more volatile fat to temporarily displace a currently oxidizing, but overall more stable fat (the omega 6 / omega 3 ratio is flawed science working off of multiple flawed assumptions, assertions, and half-truths)

P.S. get him to take either a combination of aspirin and caffeine, or buy him Bayer back and body which has both in one pill. Aspirin stops both forms of pufa (omega 3 and omega 6) from turning into their bioactive stress causing forms; eicosanoides, prostaglandins, etc.
Caffeine helps aspirin start working on stressed out cells faster.

The chest feeling is his thymus being deteriorated when prostaglandins are synthesized; Google thymus stress glucose.
Feeding sugar or corn syrup (I like cola for the antioxidant effects of caffeine here again) will make the feeling go away and spare the soft thymus tissue;
the issue with borderline personality disorder is caused when the body makes certain adaptations to utilizing the stress hormones like serotonin and cortisol, so using pure salt and certain first generation antihistamines will help too.

 

[Anabolic]

To better understand the chest feeling, google "PubMed
Cytokines, leptin, and stress-induced thymic atrophy"

A little from that article:
"Thymopoiesis is essential for development and maintenance of a robust and healthy immune system. Acute thymic atrophy is a complication of many infections, environmental stressors, clinical preparative regimens, and cancer treatments used today. This undesirable sequela can decrease host ability to reconstitute the peripheral T cell repertoire and respond to new antigens. Currently, there are no treatments available to protect against acute thymic atrophy or accelerate recovery, thus leaving the immune system compromised during acute stress events. Several useful murine models are available for mechanistic studies of acute thymic atrophy, including a sepsis model of endotoxin-induced thymic involution. We have identified the IL-6 cytokine gene family members (i.e., leukemia inhibitory factor, IL-6, and oncostatin M) as thymosuppressive agents by the observation that they can acutely involute the thymus when injected into a young, healthy mouse. We have gone on to explore the role of thymosuppressive cytokines and specifically defined a corticosteroid-dependent mechanism of action for the leukemia inhibitory factor in acute thymic atrophy. We also have identified leptin as a novel, thymostimulatory agent that can protect against endotoxin-induced acute thymic atrophy."

"In humans, monitoring thymus function is typically limited to noninvasive technology, including imaging of thymus size with chest-computed tomography or glucose-analog uptake with positron emission tomography (reviewed in Hudson et al. [9]). Peripheral monitoring of thymus output in humans is restricted to surrogate marker analysis of naïve T cell populations in the blood. "

Sepsis causes massive lymphocyte apoptosis that impairs host T and B cell responses [18, 19] and causes severe thymic atrophy [14]. Critical players in sepsis are glucocorticoids (corticosterone in rodents, cortisol in humans) induced by activation of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis and acute, proinflammatory cytokine cascades [20].

Acute, stress-induced thymic atrophy is a complication from many environmental stressors as well, in which transient reduction in thymus function persists until the physiological stressor is removed. The effects of malnutrition, starvation, and alcoholism have a negative impact on human thymopoiesis [21,22,23]. Morphological studies, for example, on autopsy of patients suffering from alcoholism showed decreased size and cellularity of thymus compared with tissue from age-matched nonalcoholics [23]. Environmental stressors such as prolonged physical or emotional stress can activate the HPA axis to induce production of the stress hormone cortisol, causing abrupt thymus involution and a result in a drop in thymopoiesis [24].

 

[Travis]

Fish oil is recommended by people on the basis of its DHA content, a large lipid with six double‐bonds found in the brain. This is absolutely essential as is demonstrated by those having Zellweger's syndrome. However, we don't need to consume DHA to have it in our brains; most animals and over 99% of people can simply make it themselves from the precursor α-linolenic acid, which is found in leaves and grass‐fed cheese.

Beta‐carotene is also found in leaves and vitamin A in cheese, should that be the argument for fish oil.

I personally don't think its worth taking. It is smelly, oxidized, and the high vitamin A + PUFA content of CLO can give a person liver damage. If someone is depressed, I think things like lotus stamens and vitamin D would be better—and safer. A person could perhaps even grow poppies.. .

 

[EIRE24]

Any seemingly positive effects from fish oil would be short term and only because it would displace some currently-oxidizing (old) omega-6 pufa stores (think cottonseed oil from potato chips or something he ate as a kid finally undergoing lipid peroxidase)

omega 3 pufa is roughly twice as unsaturated (worse) than omega 6 pufa, and fish oil is even more volatile (closer to its oxidation / spoilage point) than regular soybean oil (crisco, omega 6 pufa)

Use vitamin E (natural form, mixed tocopherols) and cheap coconut oil (store brand, refined, plain, no coconut flavor or smell, non organic) to get the same short term improvement seen in fish oil studies, but in the case of using vitamin e and cocout oil instead of fish oil, you correct the problem (pufa oxidation) permanently, rather than creating a worse off future situation like the studies unknowingly do when they use a more volatile fat to temporarily displace a currently oxidizing, but overall more stable fat (the omega 6 / omega 3 ratio is flawed science working off of multiple flawed assumptions, assertions, and half-truths)

P.S. get him to take either a combination of aspirin and caffeine, or buy him Bayer back and body which has both in one pill. Aspirin stops both forms of pufa (omega 3 and omega 6) from turning into their bioactive stress causing forms; eicosanoides, prostaglandins, etc.
Caffeine helps aspirin start working on stressed out cells faster.

The chest feeling is his thymus being deteriorated when prostaglandins are synthesized; Google thymus stress glucose.
Feeding sugar or corn syrup (I like cola for the antioxidant effects of caffeine here again) will make the feeling go away and spare the soft thymus tissue;
the issue with borderline personality disorder is caused when the body makes certain adaptations to utilizing the stress hormones like serotonin and cortisol, so using pure salt and certain first generation antihistamines will help too.

Can this thymus tissue be repaired after it has deteriorated?

 

[TreasureVibe]

Wow thanks for the awesome replies! Are There any vitamins and/or minerals and herbs that can be taken to prevent the thymus stress in the chest, like for example vitamin K?

 

[YourUniverse]

Any seemingly positive effects from fish oil would be short term and only because it would displace some currently-oxidizing (old) omega-6 pufa stores (think cottonseed oil from potato chips or something he ate as a kid finally undergoing lipid peroxidase)

omega 3 pufa is roughly twice as unsaturated (worse) than omega 6 pufa, and fish oil is even more volatile (closer to its oxidation / spoilage point) than regular soybean oil (crisco, omega 6 pufa)

Use vitamin E (natural form, mixed tocopherols) and cheap coconut oil (store brand, refined, plain, no coconut flavor or smell, non organic) to get the same short term improvement seen in fish oil studies, but in the case of using vitamin e and cocout oil instead of fish oil, you correct the problem (pufa oxidation) permanently, rather than creating a worse off future situation like the studies unknowingly do when they use a more volatile fat to temporarily displace a currently oxidizing, but overall more stable fat (the omega 6 / omega 3 ratio is flawed science working off of multiple flawed assumptions, assertions, and half-truths)

P.S. get him to take either a combination of aspirin and caffeine, or buy him Bayer back and body which has both in one pill. Aspirin stops both forms of pufa (omega 3 and omega 6) from turning into their bioactive stress causing forms; eicosanoides, prostaglandins, etc.
Caffeine helps aspirin start working on stressed out cells faster.

The chest feeling is his thymus being deteriorated when prostaglandins are synthesized; Google thymus stress glucose.
Feeding sugar or corn syrup (I like cola for the antioxidant effects of caffeine here again) will make the feeling go away and spare the soft thymus tissue;
the issue with borderline personality disorder is caused when the body makes certain adaptations to utilizing the stress hormones like serotonin and cortisol, so using pure salt and certain first generation antihistamines will help too.

brilliant, thank you for this write up

 

[TreasureVibe]

Wow thanks for the awesome replies! Are There any vitamins and/or minerals and herbs that can be taken to prevent the thymus stress in the chest, like for example vitamin K?

Bump!

Also, @Anabolic why did you refer to the refined coconut oil from the supermarket opposed to the more expensive coconut oil from the health store which is being promoted alot?

Also, my relative has some kidney damage even though he's only 18 years old, presumably due to an attempt of suicide before in which he used an overdose of blood pressure medication he stole. So would aspirin be safe in his case, in regards to his kidney health? We have no kidney blood numbers that are recent, so it might as well be that they are fine but it is inconclusive.

 

[Anabolic]

Bump!

Also, @Anabolic why did you refer to the refined coconut oil from the supermarket opposed to the more expensive coconut oil from the health store which is being promoted alot?

Also, my relative has some kidney damage even though he's only 18 years old, presumably due to an attempt of suicide before in which he used an overdose of blood pressure medication he stole. So would aspirin be safe in his case, in regards to his kidney health? We have no kidney blood numbers that are recent, so it might as well be that they are fine but it is inconclusive.

I like the cheaper refined coconut oils when they seem subjectively more solid than a natural brand, and it makes keeping a supply on hand cheap + doable (especially if I'm recommending to someone to try CO for the first time); also I dislike the overt coconutty taste of the unrefined oils, while some actually find they get a slight allergic reaction to unrefined virgin CO :)

Aspirin will be safe for his kidneys, after meals is best to avoid any stomach upset, phosphate ratio is what's important for kidney health, so keeping his daily portions of red meat relatively small (but don't cut out meat, the kidneys need some to heal) while upping his calcium intake and keeping it kinda high via milk (which is paradoxically high in phosphate too, but still important) and supplemental eggshell calcium (baked and powdered in coffee grinder) along with magnesium and sodium, via salty cooked greens and their broth, (Morton canning and pickling salt is the only one to buy, no added cyanide or fillers like kosher or table salt) or just the pure Morton canning and pickling salt and a magnesium glycinate supplement. Start slow with all the minerals I recommend except for the salt, buy a box for him ASAP to speed up kidney health.

BTW juice and soda are better for both stress and kidney health than water, for him I would avoid added phosphoric acid in cola, since phosphates worsen kidney levels, but the level in soda is lower than in beans for example. I think sugared milk or coffee with milk and sugar would be really good, home made chocolate milk with cocoa powder, sugar, a little salt, straight into a half gallon of 2% for him to drink too. Also 7up is good for kidneys and stress, as well as apple juice. Mtn dew is poisonous as they add brominated vegetable oil.

 

[Such_Saturation]

They have little omega-3 because it all peroxidised. Read the Ray Peat email depository.

 

[TreasureVibe]

-- double post --

 

[TreasureVibe]

Small update @Anabolic vitamin E 400 IU mixed tocopherols on its own made my relative very agressive and dark minded, but he came off a steroids cycle that he underestimated so his estrogen was probably high and his testosterone low, as his pct was not thought out well. He took the vitamin E once and it had this effect for a day or two before the darkness and aggression subsided. A few weeks later I gave him a spoon of coconut oil and his chest feeling decreased tremendously according to him, and he even said that he now felt like he wasn't crazy, after having thought that for years, and he will continue to take he coconut oil. However, I am afraid that when I give him the vitamin E as well, that he will become aggressive and dark minded again. Once again, his estrogen is probably high and his cortisol too due to a steroids cycle with no proper planning for outcome. Testosterone is probably lowish because of it too.

What do you think? Will the vitamin E in combination with coconut oil not make him aggressive and dark minded like when he took the vitamin E alone? Thanks man.