Is Supplementing Vit E Actually Bad For You?

[Dave Clark]

Life Extension uses sesamin in a lot of their formulas. They call it a lignan. Is a lignan a phytoestrogen? Yeah, it is supposed to protect vitamin e and keep it active in the body longer, according to their literature.

 

[BigChad]

Life Extension uses sesamin in a lot of their formulas. They call it a lignan. Is a lignan a phytoestrogen? Yeah, it is supposed to protect vitamin e and keep it active in the body longer, according to their literature.

I think all seeds are bad besides potentially black cumin seed and grains of paradise. I have read that about sesame lignan too

 

[Aleeri]

Sesame extract would be bad though?
What do you think of nutrigolds vitamin E gold product. It has 40mg mixed tocopherols and 40mg mixed tocotrienols. Im not sure about it due to the tocotrienols being unsaturated. Its sourced from sunflower and red palm oil and uses olive oil in the capsule

Sesame seeds or oil would be bad since they contain a lot of PUFA, but Sesamin extract which is only a compound from the oil or seeds I think is ok.

That product looks good but I see "sunflower oil" which is not considered good, although the amount of oil in a capsule would not be a lot so I do not think it matters.

 

[BigChad]

Sesame seeds or oil would be bad since they contain a lot of PUFA, but Sesamin extract which is only a compound from the oil or seeds I think is ok.

That product looks good but I see "sunflower oil" which is not considered good, although the amount of oil in a capsule would not be a lot so I do not think it matters.

I reached out to them regarding that. It looks like they obtain the vitamin e from red palm and sunflower while the oil inside the capsule is olive oil. I asked them how much sunflower or palm residues or oils are remaining in the capsule, and also if they use molecular distillation to remove sunflower residues from the product.
Btw arr there issues with that plant sourced emulsifier listed in the ingredients

 

[BigChad]

Sesame seeds or oil would be bad since they contain a lot of PUFA, but Sesamin extract which is only a compound from the oil or seeds I think is ok.

That product looks good but I see "sunflower oil" which is not considered good, although the amount of oil in a capsule would not be a lot so I do not think it matters.

They told me a capsule contains 450mg total oil including palm, olive, sunflower. Palm is the majority. So it likely has 150mg to 200mg sunflower oil and 100mg or less olive oil. I guess the 30mg alpha tocopherol, plus 10mg mixed tocopherols plus 40mg mixed tocotrienols should be enough to nullify the 200mg sunflower oil?
Btw what do you think of thornes ultimate e product. It comes from soy and vegetable oils, they claim they use molecular distillation to remove soy residues yet ive read some people on here having bad reactions to it or saying it did nothing for them

 

[Aleeri]

They told me a capsule contains 450mg total oil including palm, olive, sunflower. Palm is the majority. So it likely has 150mg to 200mg sunflower oil and 100mg or less olive oil. I guess the 30mg alpha tocopherol, plus 10mg mixed tocopherols plus 40mg mixed tocotrienols should be enough to nullify the 200mg sunflower oil?
Btw what do you think of thornes ultimate e product. It comes from soy and vegetable oils, they claim they use molecular distillation to remove soy residues yet ive read some people on here having bad reactions to it or saying it did nothing for them

I think that amount of sunflower oil would be negligible. You probably get that in the diet anyway through some pre-packaged food.

I think Thornes Ultimate E product is good, I've used it myself. But I prefer to get my vitamin E from a fruit source, like Palm Fruit. It just makes more sense to me that you get it from a fruit that the plant made for your consumption (to spread it's seeds etc).

 

[BigChad]

I think that amount of sunflower oil would be negligible. You probably get that in the diet anyway through some pre-packaged food.

I think Thornes Ultimate E product is good, I've used it myself. But I prefer to get my vitamin E from a fruit source, like Palm Fruit. It just makes more sense to me that you get it from a fruit that the plant made for your consumption (to spread it's seeds etc).

I see but with palm fruit you will be getting both tocopherols and tocotrienols, maybe more tocotrienols than tocopherols. Do you feel similar effects from eating palm fruit vs eating vitamin e.
Btw , could that thorne vitamin R bloat you if taken two days in a row.

 

[Aleeri]

I see but with palm fruit you will be getting both tocopherols and tocotrienols, maybe more tocotrienols than tocopherols. Do you feel similar effects from eating palm fruit vs eating vitamin e.
Btw , could that thorne vitamin R bloat you if taken two days in a row.

The only benefits I can actually perceive from taking Vitamin E is blood thinning effect and harder morning erections. Anything else I have not been able to feel using any type of vitamin E product. I see it more as a nutrient rather then a supplement.

 

[Lokzo]

harder morning erections.

I have been noticing this as well. Must be the prolactin inhibition.

 

[rob]

Still cautious about vitamin e supplements. I remember the following study indicating potent antioxidants like NAC and vitamin E can block basal and induced autophagy:

Antioxidants can inhibit basal autophagy and enhance neurodegeneration in models of polyglutamine disease

It’s a really fine balancing act with these things. How do we know at what dosage we overly suppress ROS and the cons start outweighing the pros?

Might be prudent to take such antioxidants only every other day or less to mitigate any possible adverse consequences. Indeed, chronic inflammatory diseases have been characterised by defective autophagy, particularly mitophagy, so certainly gives me pause for thought.

 

[BigChad]

Still cautious about vitamin e supplements. I remember the following study indicating potent antioxidants like NAC and vitamin E can block basal and induced autophagy:

Antioxidants can inhibit basal autophagy and enhance neurodegeneration in models of polyglutamine disease

It’s a really fine balancing act with these things. How do we know at what dosage we overly suppress ROS and the cons start outweighing the pros?

Might be prudent to take such antioxidants only every other day or less to mitigate any possible adverse consequences. Indeed, chronic inflammatory diseases have been characterised by defective autophagy, particularly mitophagy, so certainly gives me pause for thought.

Do you mean all antioxidants, even vitamin c, olive leaf, coq10 should be limited or only e and nac

 

[rob]

Do you mean all antioxidants, even vitamin c, olive leaf, coq10 should be limited or only e and nac

The study made mention of only vitamin E and thiol-containing antioxidants, so that would include things like cysteine, NAC, glutathione and alpha lipoic acid.

As for vitamin C, there's evidence that it might increase autophagy (e.g. Effect and proposed mechanism of vitamin C modulating amino acid regulation of autophagic proteolysis. - PubMed - NCBI). Of course, vitamin C has interesting anti- and pro-oxidant effects depending on dose. Why there might be this differential effect, don't know off the top of my head – will think and get back.

Generally though, the idea of taking high doses of antioxidants every day, especially for healthy individuals, always struck me as playing with fire if one isn't doing it carefully in line with biochemical markers - and who does that.

A level of hormetic stress is necessary for optimal cell communication/functioning. Indeed, our mitochodria use the ROS they produce in coordinating an effective immune response to pathogens. Overly suppressing this complex machinery over the long term strikes me as asking for trouble.

 

[stargazer1111]

Yes! But Nutri-Spec states that anywhere above 200 IU strains the heart, see:

The vitamin E in Activator is the highest biological activity and highest quality you can find anywhere. You may not realize that vitamin E is the one nutrient that is available in several different grades, all of which appear on the vitamin supplement labels as d-alpha Tocopherol. There is no way you can tell when you look at a product label whether you are getting common low grade vitamin E, or the high grade that you get from NUTRI-SPEC.

Something else you may not know about vitamin E is that almost all vitamin E in supplements is derived from wheat. Wheat, of course, is probably the number one food allergen. For that reason we have gone to the extra expense of getting your vitamin E from a non-wheat source.

Check out how "little" vitamin E is in your Activator? "That's all?" you ask, "I've seen antioxidant supplements with as much as 800 I.U.!"

Yes you have -- and those products are damaging people by the thousands. Damage from mega doses of vitamin E? You betcha.

Did you know that:

• Vitamin E stimulates anaerobic fermentation at the cellular level?
  
  (Which, by the way, is the cause of most cancers.)
  
  
• Vitamin E inhibits energy production and proper utilization of glucose?
  
  
• Vitamin E elevates blood pressure?
  
  
• Vitamin E can put a strain on the heart?
  
  
• Vitamin E can cause cardiac arrhythmias?
  
  
• Vitamin E can raise cholesterol levels?

Next to vitamin C and calcium, vitamin E has to be considered the most abused nutrient. It is taken in mega doses by oodles of people who have no idea what they are doing to themselves. As it lowers their energy, making them sick and weak, it can, if taken long enough, cause any or all of the problems listed above. Ironically, these may be the symptoms for which the person is taking vitamin E to cure. Such is the mess that typically results from non-specific, unscientific supplementation.

The quantity of vitamin E in Activator is actually several times your recommended daily allowance. Considering also the high quality of this particular form of vitamin E, plus that it is accompanied in Activator by such a rich array of other anti-oxidants and bio-protective factors -- this is all the Vitamin E the vast majority of people need to take.

And --- in accord with the NUTRI-SPEC principle of specificity --- the few people who do benefit from higher doses of vitamin E will be quite obvious to you if you do your NUTRI-SPEC testing. These few individuals will invariably test out as being either Dysaerobic or Glucogenic. Giving them, in addition to their Activator, the other indicated supplements (either Oxygenic D and D-Plus or Oxygenic G) will give them more than enough additional vitamin E. Also, of course, most of your patients will ultimately be given OXY POWER/Diphasic PM when they transition to your Diphasic Nutrition Plan.

In its damaging role as an oxidant, Vitamin C destroys the activity of one other important anti-oxidant -- Vitamin E. But, the reverse can also occur. Excess Vitamin E will also act as an oxidant instead of an anti-oxidant and in fact, doses of Vitamin E much above 140 milligrams will actually destroy the activity of Vitamin C.

Brown K.M., et al. Erythrocyte vitamin E and plasma ascorbate concentrations in relation to erythrocyte peroxidation in smokers and non-smokers: dose response to vitamin E supplementation. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1997;65:496-502.

What do you think of these statements? Do they hold truth?

Link: http://www.nutri-spec.net/articles/tocopherols.html

I've done extensive amounts of reading and plan to study vitamin C in the lab. Vitamin C only acts as a pro-oxidant at moderate levels in certain contexts. At much higher levels, it does not do this. The reason moderate vitamin C intake can be pro-0xidative is because it donates just enough electrons to reduce redox active metals but not enough to reduce other substances that then steal the electrons from the metals, leading to redox cascades that kill cells. The animals that synthesize their own vitamin C make copious amounts of it, the equivalent of which would be on the order of 15-20 grams per day in humans (and this gets upregulated in response to stress or illness).

Vitamin C is harmless. The only somewhat substantiated claim by the medical establishment involves kidney stones. However, the original studies showing increased oxalate output in the urine in response to vitamin C supplements were debunked by later studies showing that the oxalate actually formed in the urine after being taken from the patients. No increase in oxalate output was seen in those followup studies, debunking the earlier ones. The only other evidence I can find backing this up involves theoretical pathways and case studies where the patient was also ingesting very large amounts of high-oxalate foods like spinach which totally confounds the conclusions.

Vitamin E is an entirely different story because animals do not synthesize it and it's fat soluble. However, if vitamin C had any significant pro-oxidative toxicity, it would be seen in the animals that synthesize such large amounts of it daily and we do not see this.

Also have not seen any evidence that vitamin C destroys vitamin E. All the literature I have read indicates that they enhance each other's activity and spare each other so that you need less of each in the presence of both.

 

[Wagner83]

Vitamin C in the form of quali-c gives me an intense physical stress reaction. It feels like it's hurting the insides, it's harsh. 500mg with a meal.

Vitamin E in the evening has a tendency to make me feel off, particularly the next morning until the beginning of the afternoon. I experience odd bouts of sadness and become a crying b**** : I cry for no reason.

 

[D Man]

Vitamin E supplementation has not been shown to have significant benefit for people who are healthy, and appears to be harmful.[27][28] It does not improve blood sugar control in an unselected group of people with diabetes mellitus[29] or decrease the risk of stroke.[30] Daily supplementation of vitamin E does not decrease the risk of prostate cancer, and may increase it. -Wikipedia

Sources[edit]
mg/(100 g)
[note 1] Some foods with vitamin E content[3][1][48]
low high
150 Wheat germ oil
95 Almond oil
44 Canola/rapeseed oil
41 Sunflower oil
34 Safflower oil
26 Almonds
19 Wheat germ
15 Hazelnuts
14 Olive oil
8.33 Peanut
1.5 3.4 High-value green, leafy vegetables: spinach, turnip, beet greens, collard greens, and dandelion greens[note 2]
2.32 Butter
2 Avocados
1.8 Cocoa butter
1.4 Sesame oil
1.1 1.5 Asparagus[note 3]
1.5 Kiwifruit (green)
0.90 Cashew nuts
0.78 1.5 Broccoli[note 4]
0.8 1 Pumpkin[note 5]
0.26 0.94 Sweet potato[note 6]
0.9 Mangoes
0.7 Walnuts
0.54 0.56 Tomatoes[note 7]
0.13 0.22 Low-value green, leafy vegetables: lettuce[note 8]

As you can see most are PUFA's

Look at wheat germ oil:
Component g/100g
Linoleic acid (omega-6) 55
Palmitic acid 16
Oleic acid 14
Linolenic acid (omega-3) 7

Very high in Linoleic Acid! As we know from @Travis and Ray, Linoleic acid leads a pathway to proliferation!
I will stay away from Vitamin E and just consume coconut oil which has NO Linoleic or Linolenic acid.

Per Ray- Coconut oil is unusually rich in short and medium chain fatty acids. Shorter chain length allows fatty acids to be metabolized without the use of the carnitine transport system. Mildronate, which I discussed in an article on adaptogens, protects cells against stress partly by opposing the action of carnitine, and comparative studies showed that added carnitine had the opposite effect, promoting the oxidation of unsaturated fats during stress, and increasing oxidative damage to cells. I suspect that a degree of saturation of the oxidative apparatus by short-chain fatty acids has a similar effect--that is, that these very soluble and mobile short-chain saturated fats have priority for oxidation, because they don't require carnitine transport into the mitochondrion, and that this will tend to inhibit oxidation of the unstable, peroxidizable unsaturated fatty acids.

Fatty acid content of coconut oil
Type of fatty acid pct
Caprylic saturated C8

7%
Decanoic saturated C10

8%
Lauric saturated C12

48%
Myristic saturated C14

16%
Palmitic saturated C16

9.5%
Oleic monounsaturated C18:1

6.5%
Other

5%

Per Ray-It is well established that dietary coconut oil reduces our need for vitamin

I have consumed VItamin E and Coconut Oil separately on numerous occasions over the last 6/7 years (never simultaneously for some reason!)

This is a really good discussion point worth bringing back up...

Observations on both...

Vit E - Once or twice a month applied topically had a really potent impact on my mood and feeling of youthfulness, but If I went overboard it had some strange impact.

Coconut oil - I remember taking this at a time when I was also doing regular sauna / cold shower therapy regularly and I have to say its probably the most masculine, energetic that I have felt in my life. I don't know if the oil was having any impact but my hair and skin looked better than it ever had

What scares me about coconut oil is that it is not a "natural food" in the sense that it is refined by humans, and I guess the same could be said for Vitamin E.

Ray seems to be a really big advocate of both however

 

[Perry Staltic]

I will have to check out Bronson's.

For thoroughness' sake make sure to read the Ripoff Report.

 

[Simatta]

I have read through everything on here, and from my assessment, the only company's I would currently recommend off of my limited understanding are Ideal Labs, Allergy Research Group's, and Natural Origins Palm Sourced ones. I am preferentially biased towards @haidut as I purchase products from him and his products simply work more potently than most. Albeit, I have yet to try his Tocovit. I just placed a large order last night for other products of his as I expand my experimentations with his products. But so far, every single item's potency is difficult to believe, to say the least. And I've spent literally over $100k in the past 6 years in my attempts to reverse severe illness. Having said that, I would look to once a week use or when consuming PUFA-rich meals to consider Natural Origins or Allergy Research Groups Tocomin SupraBio versions. I notice online it's expensive, and I can extend a portal to discounted versions (of Allergy Research Groups) but not sure that's allowed on here? It would be equivalent to 26% off most any supplements through a WellEvate invite. Regardless, get it through the least expensive route that you can.

I am working hard on a free Vitamin Primer (then a Mineral Primer) to better dial in the nuance for why specific vitamins are critical for carb metabolism and overall thermogenic foods as Ray suggests. I'll post these as they become available and invite critique, to update them as needed. Especially the emphasis on B vitamins. I am creating these because there appears to be a need for some further distillation for those getting into exploring the principles many have set before us (Ray Peat | Danny Roddy | Georgi Dinkov | Gilbert Ling | Hans Selye | Albert Szent-Györgyi | Chris MasterJohn, etc.) I do think food sources of E might be best. The piece I am creating will detail a little more clearly other aspects.

Cheers comrades! I am adding people I see who have commented on E and B. @Obi-wan @Travis @charlie

 

[Highserotonin90]

Bump