Ideal Tryptophan Intake Per Day?

[paymanz]

how much is upper limit? in peat's diet

 

[answersfound]

As much as you want. It doesn't matter. As long as you adequately balance it with Gelatin, you have nothing to worry about. That does not include dairy. This is just my opinion...

 

[Stuart]

As much as you want. It doesn't matter. As long as you adequately balance it with Gelatin, you have nothing to worry about. That does not include dairy. This is just my opinion...

That's really interesting. How does the dairy tryptophan factor in? Is this a controversial notion in Peatdom?
And do you think there's a magic x grams of tryptophan needs to be balanced by y grams of gelatin?
Or it varies between individuals?

 

[paymanz]

do you think its a good idea to avoid b3 supplement to stimulate body increase tryptophan conversion rate to niacin?

 

[haidut]

how much is upper limit? in peat's diet

If you believe the rodent studies showing improvements in health and increase in lifespan, tryptophan intake should be below 0.17% of diet (i.e. less than 170mg per 100g of diet) and methionine should be around 0.17% of diet. Methionine restriction effects on health have been replicated in humans but no data yet on lifespan extension. Cysteine is another amino acid shown to increase lifespan when restricted, but since it is synthesized from methionine there is no need to specifically restrict it if you are following a methionine deficient diet.

Human study on methionine restriction:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21346062/

Other studies on methionine and tryptophan restriction:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23922503
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25643626
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24373243

 

[paymanz]

how much is upper limit? in peat's diet

If you believe the rodent studies showing improvements in health and increase in lifespan, tryptophan intake should be below 0.17% of diet (i.e. less than 170mg per 100g of diet) and methionine should be around 0.17% of diet. Methionine restriction effects on health have been replicated in humans but no data yet on lifespan extension. Cysteine is another amino acid shown to increase lifespan when restricted, but since it is synthesized from methionine there is no need to specifically restrict it if you are following a methionine deficient diet.

Human study on methionine restriction:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21346062/

Other studies on methionine and tryptophan restriction:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23922503
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25643626
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24373243

so if that is 170 mg/100g of rodent diet it can be a big dose in human diet.more than 1 gram per day thats a lot.but in rodent they use dry food(chow) as much as i know so maybe if we add water to that the dosage becomes less than that.

i read few studies showing results with glycine+methionine(normal or even excess) better than methionine restriction(not life span but some parameters of health ).and in one of them they owe this to effect of glycine on methionine metabolism and increasing transsulfuration so making the bad converted to a good thing which is taurine.but apparently rodents do it much better than us.so i dont know how accurate is this for human.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... agxWPkYlV4

i would like to know how exactly glycine effects methionine and tryptophan...

 

[jyb]

so if that is 170 mg/100g of rodent diet it can be a big does in human diet.more than 1 gram per day thats a lot.

1grams of tryptophan or methio is small for a human. You could easily be getting that many times that in your diet.

 

[haidut]

how much is upper limit? in peat's diet

If you believe the rodent studies showing improvements in health and increase in lifespan, tryptophan intake should be below 0.17% of diet (i.e. less than 170mg per 100g of diet) and methionine should be around 0.17% of diet. Methionine restriction effects on health have been replicated in humans but no data yet on lifespan extension. Cysteine is another amino acid shown to increase lifespan when restricted, but since it is synthesized from methionine there is no need to specifically restrict it if you are following a methionine deficient diet.

Human study on methionine restriction:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21346062/

Other studies on methionine and tryptophan restriction:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23922503
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25643626
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24373243

so if that is 170 mg/100g of rodent diet it can be a big dose in human diet.more than 1 gram per day thats a lot.but in rodent they use dry food(chow) as much as i know so maybe if we add water to that the dosage becomes less than that.

i read few studies showing results with glycine+methionine(normal or even excess) better than methionine restriction(not life span but some parameters of health ).and in one of them they owe this to effect of glycine on methionine metabolism and increasing transsulfuration so making the bad converted to a good thing which is taurine.but apparently rodents do it much better than us.so i dont know how accurate is this for human.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... agxWPkYlV4

i would like to know how exactly glycine effects methionine and tryptophan...

The human study used 2mg/kg methionine as a model of restriction. That's quite low and probably cannot be achieved realistically with normal food unless you eat mostly gelatin. The study used a special supplement made for medical purposes.
Glycine stimulates methionine metabolism into cysteine and combined with it to form glutathione. BCAA inhibit methionine absorption from intestines. I think as long as you consume as much glycine as methionine you'd be offsetting the negative effects. You should also add tryptophan and histidine to the methionine daily allowance and consume extra glycine to cover those amino acid as well (glycine balances both histidine and tryptophan).
So, either focus on gelatin as the main protein source of get some BCAA and glycine to supplement extra. There are few threads on BCAA + tyrosine + glycine to lower serotonin, so it seems to be working for most people.

 

[4peatssake]

As much as you want. It doesn't matter. As long as you adequately balance it with Gelatin, you have nothing to worry about. That does not include dairy. This is just my opinion...

That's really interesting. How does the dairy tryptophan factor in? Is this a controversial notion in Peatdom?
And do you think there's a magic x grams of tryptophan needs to be balanced by y grams of gelatin?
Or it varies between individuals?

Things become clearer when you read and reread RP's articles and newsletters and listen to his audios.
You won't get an accurate understanding of RP's ideas from a comment here or there.

af says this is his/her opinion.

It is disconcerting to see someone would come away with a notion of a "Peatdom" controversy from a random comment on a single amino acid. No offence af, I understand what you are saying but I doubt Peat would express it that way.

It's important to be careful where you get your "Peatdom" ideas from.

From RP's article Gelatin, stress, longevity
The part in bold is bolded by Peat.

The amino acids in proteins have been defined as “essential” on the basis of their contribution to growth, ignoring their role in producing long life, good brain development, and good health. The amino acid and protein requirements during aging have hardly been studied, except in rats, whose short life-span makes such studies fairly easy. The few studies that have been done indicate that the requirements for tryptophan and cysteine become very low in adulthood.

Although Clive McKay's studies of life extension through caloric restriction were done in the 1930s, only a few studies have been done to find out which nutrients' restriction contributes most to extending the life span. Restricting toxic heavy metals, without restricting calories, produces about the same life-extending effect as caloric restriction. Restricting only tryptophan, or only cysteine, produces a greater extension of the life span than achieved in most of the studies of caloric restriction. How great would be the life-span extension if both tryptophan and cysteine were restricted at the same time?

Both tryptophan and cysteine inhibit thyroid function and mitochondrial energy production, and have other effects that decrease the ability to withstand stress. Tryptophan is the precursor to serotonin, which causes inflammation, immunodepression, and generally the same changes seen in aging. Histidine is another amino acid precursor to a mediator of inflammation, histamine; would the restriction of histidine in the diet have a longevity promoting effect, too?

It happens that gelatin is a protein which contains no tryptophan, and only small amounts of cysteine, methionine, and histidine. Using gelatin as a major dietary protein is an easy way to restrict the amino acids that are associated with many of the problems of aging.

The main amino acids in gelatin are glycine and proline; alanine is also present in significant quantity. Glycine and proline are responsible for the unusual fibrous property of collagen.

As for the tryptophan in milk, RP in the email exchanges posted at the former Peatarian site, was quoted as saying:

Regarding milk and its tryptophan content, The calcium helps to keep the metabolic rate high, and the other nutrients help to steer tryptophan away from the serotonin path.

 

[Stuart]

Excellent. Thanks 4PS.
And "...FIBROUS quality of collagen". It's so easy to forget that animal connective tissue is a dietary fiber.
Not trying to cherry pick that out of all the other interesting stuff in your comment at all. But I do get the impression that Dr Peat is well aware that dietay fiber plays a critical role in healthy hormonal mediation.
In fact I wonder whether the colon microbiota ( as distinct from the other much smaller components of a healthy human microbiome - oral, stomach, S.I. and skin) will turn out to be our own on board hormonal control system. Intricately (and elegantly) designed to modulate the various hormones used in the human body -and in my view infinitely more sophisticated than human attempts to manipulate them through micromanagent of supplements.
For example. humans, until the last nano-fraction of their development, routinely consumed the whole animal, not just the muscle tissue, thereby ensuring that the tryptophan/glycine/methionine/ histidine/cysteine/serotonin balancing act was trouble free. And possibly animal dietary iiber (collagen) is the star player in the dietary fiber arsenal, to best ensure hormonal modulation proceeds trouble free.
So perhaps it is a much better approach to consume bone broth rather than just gelatin. Then you aren't missing out on that "fibrous" quality of collagen.

 

[narouz]

I was reading 4peats' quote and thinking about you, Stuart.

So glycine contains a big dose of the soluble fiber you like, eh?
We like glycine around these parts.
Maybe soluble fiber plays a role...?

 

[Stuart]

I was reading 4peats' quote and thinking about you, Stuart.

So glycine contains a big dose of the soluble fiber you like, eh?
We like glycine around these parts.
Maybe soluble fiber plays a role...?

I just noticed FredSonoma posted about bone broth making him feel 'weird' . Must take a look.
And thanks for treating me with the forebearance (even at times curiosity) I would like to think such a maverick voice in a Ray Peat discussion group deserves :)
Being in the belly of such a thought provoking beast is, for me anyway, a really worthwhile experience.

 

[FredSonoma]

Does anyone have a chart with a good breakdown of different kinds of meat and their amino acid breakdown?

I'm pretty sure that eggs and muscle meats from ruminants or fish are the main sources to be careful of with methionine and tryptophan. Is that correct?

Also, what about shrimp and oysters? Does that need to be balanced with gelatin?

Also, how important is it that I balance every meal? If my overall daily intake is balanced, is that good enough? Or every time I fry up 2 eggs should I ideally be having some gelatin with it? Also, if I'm craving the ***t out of muscle meats and kind of disgusted by gelatin, could it be a sign that my body needs more methionine to, say, build muscle or something?

 

[Brian]

Does anyone have a chart with a good breakdown of different kinds of meat and their amino acid breakdown?

I'm pretty sure that eggs and muscle meats from ruminants or fish are the main sources to be careful of with methionine and tryptophan. Is that correct?

Also, what about shrimp and oysters? Does that need to be balanced with gelatin?

Also, how important is it that I balance meal? If my overall daily intake is balanced, is that good enough? Or every time I fry up 2 eggs should I ideally be having some gelatin with it? Also, if I'm craving the s*** out of muscle meats and kind of disgusted by gelatin, could it be a sign that my body needs more methionine to, say, build muscle or something?

I eat a lot of Bottom Round beef steak. It's a cheap cut that is low in fat and has a lot of connective tissue, but I also eat a tablespoon or two of gelatin with it.

 

[Giraffe]

And "...FIBROUS quality of collagen". It's so easy to forget that animal connective tissue is a dietary fiber. Not trying to cherry pick that out of all the other interesting stuff in your comment at all. But I do get the impression that Dr Peat is well aware that dietay fiber plays a critical role in healthy hormonal mediation.

Stuart, don't forget that the human body in large parts consists of collagen.

I completely agree with 4peatssake on that you won't get an understanding of Ray Peat's ideas without reading his works. Before you commentented on it you should have read the article she linked.

Here is an article about Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging.

 

[Stuart]

Stuart, don't forget that the human body in large parts consists of collagen.

I completely agree with 4peatssake on that you won't get an understanding of Ray Peat's ideas without reading his works. Before you commentented on it you should have read the article she linked.

Here is an article about Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging.

Thanks.
That article talks a lot about 'excess' serotonin (Tara has also mentioned it in another thread too). Could you try to explain to me what 'normal' serotonin levels are ? And what is its intended function at that normal level?

Most important of all I suppose if you eat sufficient animal connective tissue so the tryptophan in foods such as dairy or shellfish don't get converted to too much (excess) serotonin. does the tryptophan itself still have the pronounced aging effect Dr. Peat refers to? I'm not referring to tryptophan's serotonergic effect here (which the glycine antagonises) but the direct aging effect of tryptophan. Glycine is a serotonin antagonist, not a tryptophan antagonist isn't it?
Also, what is the significance of the human body containing a lot of collagen? I'm not disputing it of course. Just wondering why you mentioned it?

 

[haidut]

Does anyone have a chart with a good breakdown of different kinds of meat and their amino acid breakdown?

I'm pretty sure that eggs and muscle meats from ruminants or fish are the main sources to be careful of with methionine and tryptophan. Is that correct?

Also, what about shrimp and oysters? Does that need to be balanced with gelatin?

Also, how important is it that I balance every meal? If my overall daily intake is balanced, is that good enough? Or every time I fry up 2 eggs should I ideally be having some gelatin with it? Also, if I'm craving the s*** out of muscle meats and kind of disgusted by gelatin, could it be a sign that my body needs more methionine to, say, build muscle or something?

If you Google "FOOD amino acid composition" where "food" is replaced by whatever you want analysis on you will get a lot of results. When the results come back click on Google Images and you will get many charts showing percentages, pie charts, RDA, etc.
The bottom line is that tryptophan presence in protein seems to be fairly constant. Most meats have it at about 1% of protein content. Shrimp and some fish actually have more tryptophan than beef and eggs. Methionine is mostly found in meats, eggs, and grains. Milk has less methionine than most other proteins. The only protein low in the "bad" amino acids is gelatin. However it is deficient in isoleucine and threonine, which are essential aminos. So, eating mostly gelatin and supplementing some BCAA and threonine is perhaps the easiest and cheapest way to eat a protein as close to perfect (according to Peat) as you can get naturally.

 

[answersfound]

As much as you want. It doesn't matter. As long as you adequately balance it with Gelatin, you have nothing to worry about. That does not include dairy. This is just my opinion...

That's really interesting. How does the dairy tryptophan factor in? Is this a controversial notion in Peatdom?
And do you think there's a magic x grams of tryptophan needs to be balanced by y grams of gelatin?
Or it varies between individuals?

Things become clearer when you read and reread RP's articles and newsletters and listen to his audios.
You won't get an accurate understanding of RP's ideas from a comment here or there.

af says this is his/her opinion.

It is disconcerting to see someone would come away with a notion of a "Peatdom" controversy from a random comment on a single amino acid. No offence af, I understand what you are saying but I doubt Peat would express it that way.

It's important to be careful where you get your "Peatdom" ideas from.

From RP's article Gelatin, stress, longevity
The part in bold is bolded by Peat.

The amino acids in proteins have been defined as “essential” on the basis of their contribution to growth, ignoring their role in producing long life, good brain development, and good health. The amino acid and protein requirements during aging have hardly been studied, except in rats, whose short life-span makes such studies fairly easy. The few studies that have been done indicate that the requirements for tryptophan and cysteine become very low in adulthood.

Although Clive McKay's studies of life extension through caloric restriction were done in the 1930s, only a few studies have been done to find out which nutrients' restriction contributes most to extending the life span. Restricting toxic heavy metals, without restricting calories, produces about the same life-extending effect as caloric restriction. Restricting only tryptophan, or only cysteine, produces a greater extension of the life span than achieved in most of the studies of caloric restriction. How great would be the life-span extension if both tryptophan and cysteine were restricted at the same time?

Both tryptophan and cysteine inhibit thyroid function and mitochondrial energy production, and have other effects that decrease the ability to withstand stress. Tryptophan is the precursor to serotonin, which causes inflammation, immunodepression, and generally the same changes seen in aging. Histidine is another amino acid precursor to a mediator of inflammation, histamine; would the restriction of histidine in the diet have a longevity promoting effect, too?

It happens that gelatin is a protein which contains no tryptophan, and only small amounts of cysteine, methionine, and histidine. Using gelatin as a major dietary protein is an easy way to restrict the amino acids that are associated with many of the problems of aging.

The main amino acids in gelatin are glycine and proline; alanine is also present in significant quantity. Glycine and proline are responsible for the unusual fibrous property of collagen.

As for the tryptophan in milk, RP in the email exchanges posted at the former Peatarian site, was quoted as saying:

Regarding milk and its tryptophan content, The calcium helps to keep the metabolic rate high, and the other nutrients help to steer tryptophan away from the serotonin path.

don't overcomplicate things. that is what gets people into issues in the first place.

 

[4peatssake]

As much as you want. It doesn't matter. As long as you adequately balance it with Gelatin, you have nothing to worry about. That does not include dairy. This is just my opinion...

That's really interesting. How does the dairy tryptophan factor in? Is this a controversial notion in Peatdom?
And do you think there's a magic x grams of tryptophan needs to be balanced by y grams of gelatin?
Or it varies between individuals?

Things become clearer when you read and reread RP's articles and newsletters and listen to his audios.
You won't get an accurate understanding of RP's ideas from a comment here or there.

af says this is his/her opinion.

It is disconcerting to see someone would come away with a notion of a "Peatdom" controversy from a random comment on a single amino acid. No offence af, I understand what you are saying but I doubt Peat would express it that way.

It's important to be careful where you get your "Peatdom" ideas from.

From RP's article Gelatin, stress, longevity
The part in bold is bolded by Peat.

The amino acids in proteins have been defined as “essential” on the basis of their contribution to growth, ignoring their role in producing long life, good brain development, and good health. The amino acid and protein requirements during aging have hardly been studied, except in rats, whose short life-span makes such studies fairly easy. The few studies that have been done indicate that the requirements for tryptophan and cysteine become very low in adulthood.

Although Clive McKay's studies of life extension through caloric restriction were done in the 1930s, only a few studies have been done to find out which nutrients' restriction contributes most to extending the life span. Restricting toxic heavy metals, without restricting calories, produces about the same life-extending effect as caloric restriction. Restricting only tryptophan, or only cysteine, produces a greater extension of the life span than achieved in most of the studies of caloric restriction. How great would be the life-span extension if both tryptophan and cysteine were restricted at the same time?

Both tryptophan and cysteine inhibit thyroid function and mitochondrial energy production, and have other effects that decrease the ability to withstand stress. Tryptophan is the precursor to serotonin, which causes inflammation, immunodepression, and generally the same changes seen in aging. Histidine is another amino acid precursor to a mediator of inflammation, histamine; would the restriction of histidine in the diet have a longevity promoting effect, too?

It happens that gelatin is a protein which contains no tryptophan, and only small amounts of cysteine, methionine, and histidine. Using gelatin as a major dietary protein is an easy way to restrict the amino acids that are associated with many of the problems of aging.

The main amino acids in gelatin are glycine and proline; alanine is also present in significant quantity. Glycine and proline are responsible for the unusual fibrous property of collagen.

As for the tryptophan in milk, RP in the email exchanges posted at the former Peatarian site, was quoted as saying:

Regarding milk and its tryptophan content, The calcium helps to keep the metabolic rate high, and the other nutrients help to steer tryptophan away from the serotonin path.

don't overcomplicate things. that is what gets people into issues in the first place.

If quoting RP complicates things for people, I daresay they are in big trouble. :P
How are you supposed to apply his ideas accurately, if you don't bother to read and understand them?

 

[answersfound]

As much as you want. It doesn't matter. As long as you adequately balance it with Gelatin, you have nothing to worry about. That does not include dairy. This is just my opinion...

That's really interesting. How does the dairy tryptophan factor in? Is this a controversial notion in Peatdom?
And do you think there's a magic x grams of tryptophan needs to be balanced by y grams of gelatin?
Or it varies between individuals?

Things become clearer when you read and reread RP's articles and newsletters and listen to his audios.
You won't get an accurate understanding of RP's ideas from a comment here or there.

af says this is his/her opinion.

It is disconcerting to see someone would come away with a notion of a "Peatdom" controversy from a random comment on a single amino acid. No offence af, I understand what you are saying but I doubt Peat would express it that way.

It's important to be careful where you get your "Peatdom" ideas from.

From RP's article Gelatin, stress, longevity
The part in bold is bolded by Peat.

The amino acids in proteins have been defined as “essential” on the basis of their contribution to growth, ignoring their role in producing long life, good brain development, and good health. The amino acid and protein requirements during aging have hardly been studied, except in rats, whose short life-span makes such studies fairly easy. The few studies that have been done indicate that the requirements for tryptophan and cysteine become very low in adulthood.

Although Clive McKay's studies of life extension through caloric restriction were done in the 1930s, only a few studies have been done to find out which nutrients' restriction contributes most to extending the life span. Restricting toxic heavy metals, without restricting calories, produces about the same life-extending effect as caloric restriction. Restricting only tryptophan, or only cysteine, produces a greater extension of the life span than achieved in most of the studies of caloric restriction. How great would be the life-span extension if both tryptophan and cysteine were restricted at the same time?

Both tryptophan and cysteine inhibit thyroid function and mitochondrial energy production, and have other effects that decrease the ability to withstand stress. Tryptophan is the precursor to serotonin, which causes inflammation, immunodepression, and generally the same changes seen in aging. Histidine is another amino acid precursor to a mediator of inflammation, histamine; would the restriction of histidine in the diet have a longevity promoting effect, too?

It happens that gelatin is a protein which contains no tryptophan, and only small amounts of cysteine, methionine, and histidine. Using gelatin as a major dietary protein is an easy way to restrict the amino acids that are associated with many of the problems of aging.

The main amino acids in gelatin are glycine and proline; alanine is also present in significant quantity. Glycine and proline are responsible for the unusual fibrous property of collagen.

As for the tryptophan in milk, RP in the email exchanges posted at the former Peatarian site, was quoted as saying:

Regarding milk and its tryptophan content, The calcium helps to keep the metabolic rate high, and the other nutrients help to steer tryptophan away from the serotonin path.

don't overcomplicate things. that is what gets people into issues in the first place.

If quoting RP complicates things for people, I daresay they are in big trouble. :P
How are you supposed to apply his ideas accurately, if you don't bother to read and understand them?

Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. There are plenty of healthy people in this world, that don't understand why the food they eat is helping them. This is about innate intelligence. The foods that are recommended have been around for thousands of years. Take away all the dogma and social conditioning around what is healthy, and EVERYONE is eating a "Peat diet". No one is eating salads, drinking soy milk, PUFA's. "Apply them correctly?" Tell that to a baby who wants to eat fruit and drink milk. There is no learning that needs to be done. It's unlearning that needs to be done.

Of course it may interesting to understand the ideas, but it certainly is far from necessary. When you demand that people understand ideas and a protocol, you restrict them. You deactivate their internal guidance system and suggest they operate mechanically.