Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

[tigerlily96]

Hmmm, interesting!

 

[Peater Piper]

It's worth moving to this thread for further reading:

Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

 

[Agent207]

So Peat recommends SFA with starch to reduce endotoxin...

But commercial palm oil is pure crap, no matter its fatty acid composition.

 

[Waynish]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, but I'm curious what you all & @tyw think are the most effective antibiotics (or antibiotic-like substances) at killing bacteria in the small intestine.

Also, any idea how much your theory's action applies to small intestine vs large intestine?

 

[Xisca]

(Sidenote: that said, my regular diet is basically zero fermentable carbohydrates , and very low fat)

...Which carbohydrates are unfermentable and thus aceptable to y0u?
Thanks for your posts

 

[Waynish]

...Which carbohydrates are unfermentable and thus aceptable to y0u?
Thanks for your posts

Ya, and doesn't that mean you're either very low calorie or very high protein? All simple sugars are very fermentable...

 

[tyw]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, but I'm curious what you all & @tyw think are the most effective antibiotics (or antibiotic-like substances) at killing bacteria in the small intestine.

Also, any idea how much your theory's action applies to small intestine vs large intestine?

There is no chylomicron mechanism in the large intestine, and therefore the mechanics I described, which are largely specific to chylomicrons, do not apply to the large intestine.

There is absorption of short chain fatty acids from the large intestine, but that mechanism should not transport endotoxin if working properly.

----

I do not use antibiotics, and do not have one formula used for all GI tract issues.

Like I've said in the past, probably the most general purpose agent for the gut is going to be high-dose Betaine HCL. I make no recommendations to other people on the dosing, except to say that I have done periods of 30g/day for around a month during a period of chronic infection (which involved other support). There are side effects when you use doses like that of course, which is why such must be done under the proper practitioner supervision. Personally, I just felt more than usual fatigue in the immediate period after taking a dose (I did basically 5g a dose, 6 times a day), but otherwise didn't feel any worse than I already did.

I know that there are people who do 5g a day regularly with no problems. In practice, this is basically your simple recommendation for 3-4 tablets of 500-600mg with each meal.

That is just one compound in a host of compounds that I personally have on hand for gut-related issues. Other compounds that are regularly used include:
- Agastache rugosa (which is the main ingredient in the Huo Xiang Zheng Qi Wan formulation)
- Holarrhena antidysenterica
- Hyssopus officinalis
- Noni fruit

The first 2 I like the most, since they can be used in high doses for acute GI conditions.

That said, I usually have lots of stuff on hand ..... and many have crossover usage for GI tract issues:
- Grapefruit Seed Extract (usually requires high dose, at least 200mg)
- Oregeno oil (usually low dose)
- High dose clove extract
- Green Tea usually very useful, again at high dose for acute conditions
- Olive Leaf Extract sometimes useful, again, at high dose for acute conditions ("high dose" here usually means 700mg Oleuropein)
- Ginger
- Vinegar of various forms
- Limonene (though I mostly use this in the form of Citrasolv, for preventing mold buildup in the house and on clothes, bed sheets, etc ...)

Again, all are substances that I just keep on hand, and use when appropriate. I've got my own weird TCM-inspired methods for determining "when appropriate", and make no recommendations for use of any of these compounds. These are also mostly purgation aids, and do not help with tonification and balancing.

----

...Which carbohydrates are unfermentable and thus aceptable to y0u?
Thanks for your posts

Ya, and doesn't that mean you're either very low calorie or very high protein? All simple sugars are very fermentable...

In the past, any high-fiber containing substance I tried to avoid. Now I'm mostly fine with the fiber found in tubers (eg: sweet potatoes) and grains (eg: wheat, barley, rye, etc ...). Legumes ok in moderate doses.

Still barely any fruit and vegetables in my diet. Not useful, and doesn't digest as well. Sugar is incidental to whatever starch sources that are consumed, and generally kept low.

Personally, I like my almost entirely starch-based, low protein, low sugar, mostly-plant-based diet . Definitely calorically sufficient (2400kcal a day average), and definitely no dairy, though I have nothing against animal foods would eat fish and eggs semi-regularly).

As usual, I do not recommend this sort of eating style for anyone.

....

 

[Xisca]

I am thus more and mor convinced that personal choices for food depends on the digestive capacities, and our personal gut critters!
I know fruitarians and rawfooders that do well.... And tyw does not digest well the fruits and vegs they thrive on....
About fat, that was interesting to know that extremes do best, high or low, not between the 2!
In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1)

 

[EIRE24]

There is no chylomicron mechanism in the large intestine, and therefore the mechanics I described, which are largely specific to chylomicrons, do not apply to the large intestine.

There is absorption of short chain fatty acids from the large intestine, but that mechanism should not transport endotoxin if working properly.

----

I do not use antibiotics, and do not have one formula used for all GI tract issues.

Like I've said in the past, probably the most general purpose agent for the gut is going to be high-dose Betaine HCL. I make no recommendations to other people on the dosing, except to say that I have done periods of 30g/day for around a month during a period of chronic infection (which involved other support). There are side effects when you use doses like that of course, which is why such must be done under the proper practitioner supervision. Personally, I just felt more than usual fatigue in the immediate period after taking a dose (I did basically 5g a dose, 6 times a day), but otherwise didn't feel any worse than I already did.

I know that there are people who do 5g a day regularly with no problems. In practice, this is basically your simple recommendation for 3-4 tablets of 500-600mg with each meal.

That is just one compound in a host of compounds that I personally have on hand for gut-related issues. Other compounds that are regularly used include:
- Agastache rugosa (which is the main ingredient in the Huo Xiang Zheng Qi Wan formulation)
- Holarrhena antidysenterica
- Hyssopus officinalis
- Noni fruit

The first 2 I like the most, since they can be used in high doses for acute GI conditions.

That said, I usually have lots of stuff on hand ..... and many have crossover usage for GI tract issues:
- Grapefruit Seed Extract (usually requires high dose, at least 200mg)
- Oregeno oil (usually low dose)
- High dose clove extract
- Green Tea usually very useful, again at high dose for acute conditions
- Olive Leaf Extract sometimes useful, again, at high dose for acute conditions ("high dose" here usually means 700mg Oleuropein)
- Ginger
- Vinegar of various forms
- Limonene (though I mostly use this in the form of Citrasolv, for preventing mold buildup in the house and on clothes, bed sheets, etc ...)

Again, all are substances that I just keep on hand, and use when appropriate. I've got my own weird TCM-inspired methods for determining "when appropriate", and make no recommendations for use of any of these compounds. These are also mostly purgation aids, and do not help with tonification and balancing.

----



In the past, any high-fiber containing substance I tried to avoid. Now I'm mostly fine with the fiber found in tubers (eg: sweet potatoes) and grains (eg: wheat, barley, rye, etc ...). Legumes ok in moderate doses.

Still barely any fruit and vegetables in my diet. Not useful, and doesn't digest as well. Sugar is incidental to whatever starch sources that are consumed, and generally kept low.

Personally, I like my almost entirely starch-based, low protein, low sugar, mostly-plant-based diet . Definitely calorically sufficient (2400kcal a day average), and definitely no dairy, though I have nothing against animal foods would eat fish and eggs semi-regularly).

As usual, I do not recommend this sort of eating style for anyone.

....

What are your thoughts on apple cider vinegar compared to normal white vinegar? Which is best?

 

[Milena]

I am thus more and mor convinced that personal choices for food depends on the digestive capacities, and our personal gut critters!
I know fruitarians and rawfooders that do well.... And tyw does not digest well the fruits and vegs they thrive on....

I did OK on raw fruits and veg but the quantity, sourcing, price and somewhat sociability were problematic, especially to my teeth. I would love to the amount of meat and fat that I enjoy as a child and teen; that suited me well then and was sooo tasty.

About fat, that was interesting to know that extremes do best, high or low, not between the 2!

I came to that conclusion before finding Ray Peat although my main reasoning then was a discovery when I was looking at insulin signalling (for which I cannot find the article or science papers, now) that showed that triglycerides (or it may have been FFAs) can interrupt one process in the chemical cascade essentially blocking the insulin receptor on a WAT cell. This had the combined response if there were too many of both then and glycogen by raising blood glycogen levels removing a fuel source for the cell as the GLUT4 was not asked to allow the glycogen in, raising insulin as the brain sought to redress the balance. Could result in worst case scenario of raised insulin & glycogen, stressed pancreas and starving WAT. This may slightly explain why people with WAT are more susceptible to insulin resistance.
Also what came out was that the 'John Hopkins' mouse strain had a genetic difference, missing something that allowed one of these chain to progress. The author concluded that studies on insulin signalling using the 'John Hopkins' mouse, which included the viral photograph of a fatty deposits, might be promoting erroneous conclusions if this genetic difference was not taken into account.
Sadly, a HFLC diet doesn't suit me

 

[Xisca]

What is confusing for me is that I do not know what is best for me... It seems I was doing better on fat, because of gluten and other gut sensibilities, but I am trying to come back to carbs, as it seems that fat long term can be a problema... But is it?

I have tendency to pain an aches, so lactic acid, and burning fat does NOT produce lactic acid! If I am right on this.
But if fat causes more endotoxin... No, if I understand, it causes problem when you already have endotoxins! But if present endotoxins come from fermenting carbs, .... you see the vicious circle!!

 

[EIRE24]

What is confusing for me is that I do not know what is best for me... It seems I was doing better on fat, because of gluten and other gut sensibilities, but I am trying to come back to carbs, as it seems that fat long term can be a problema... But is it?

I have tendency to pain an aches, so lactic acid, and burning fat does NOT produce lactic acid! If I am right on this.
But if fat causes more endotoxin... No, if I understand, it causes problem when you already have endotoxins! But if present endotoxins come from fermenting carbs, .... you see the vicious circle!!

You mean the fat was helping repair the gut?

You don't need to go high fat if you're gluten intolerant, there are so many carb sources that are gluten free

 

[Xisca]

@EIRE24 I do not know if fat repairs the gut, but I at least meant that getting calories from fat means eating less carbs!
I said gluten and more sensibilities, as I do not know them all...
Yes I get carbs without gluten, after more than 15 years I have used them all + I am an automatic ingredient reader haha!
BUT, after a few year gluten free, it was obvious that other carbs were causing some symptoms...
So, I think that gluten issues that are not celiac desease means that there is a general gut issue, further than gluten...

So, now the goal is to convince my body to deal with carbs better, produce CO2 and not lactic acid, and correct my guts.

Do you see the point of the circle? Carbs produce endotoxin, and when you want to eat fats, that microbes do not thrive on in the gut, then you have to deal with the problem of fat favoring endotoxin to go into blood stream!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if I do not have fat with fruits, I hyper and hypo because of the speed of digestion....

 

[EIRE24]

@EIRE24 I do not know if fat repairs the gut, but I at least meant that getting calories from fat means eating less carbs!
I said gluten and more sensibilities, as I do not know them all...
Yes I get carbs without gluten, after more than 15 years I have used them all + I am an automatic ingredient reader haha!
BUT, after a few year gluten free, it was obvious that other carbs were causing some symptoms...
So, I think that gluten issues that are not celiac desease means that there is a general gut issue, further than gluten...

So, now the goal is to convince my body to deal with carbs better, produce CO2 and not lactic acid, and correct my guts.

Do you see the point of the circle? Carbs produce endotoxin, and when you want to eat fats, that microbes do not thrive on in the gut, then you have to deal with the problem of fat favoring endotoxin to go into blood stream!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if I do not have fat with fruits, I hyper and hypo because of the speed of digestion....

Ok dude I get you. What carb sources free of gluten did you use most and which did you find digested the best?

 

[Xisca]

I was great for example with a sort of sweet mayo I gave the recepe, sweetened by banana, the fat being emulsified. During a few months it was my only carb, or almost.

I have just finished my guava tree, and eating them for 3 months was not the best for my guts, the center made into juice, so raw, and the outside cooked, as it seems rich in pectine.

I can have orange juice and did also cook the pulp.

Now I can have also rice, sweat potato and potatoe, though after a while I end up with bloating...

And I have to be careful to mix with butter, usually clarified, or coconut oil, or else I have hyper hypo.

I try to have carot and mushrooms, but clearing gut issue is an absolute necessity to be able to stand any carb! I am not sure about the issue being more with carb or fructose...

I am not up to the point of pain of people going into SCD diet, but if this diet helps in some syndroms, there is a reason, and this is about unbalanced flora, candida etc. People who do not have such issues will sure thrive imidiately when following Peat's high sugar diet!

 

[Westside PUFAs]

In the past, any high-fiber containing substance I tried to avoid. Now I'm mostly fine with the fiber found in tubers (eg: sweet potatoes) and grains (eg: wheat, barley, rye, etc ...). Legumes ok in moderate doses.

Still barely any fruit and vegetables in my diet. Not useful, and doesn't digest as well. Sugar is incidental to whatever starch sources that are consumed, and generally kept low.

Personally, I like my almost entirely starch-based, low protein, low sugar, mostly-plant-based diet . Definitely calorically sufficient (2400kcal a day average), and definitely no dairy, though I have nothing against animal foods would eat fish and eggs semi-regularly).

As usual, I do not recommend this sort of eating style for anyone.

....

No dairy, no greens, but...but where do you get your calcium mister?

.

 

[Xisca]

No dairy, no greens, but...but where do you get your calcium mister?

Bone broth?

 

[Amazoniac]

Bone broth?

Or even bones from the fishes that he mentioned..

 

[Amazoniac]

The critical area for endotoxin absorption is the lower part of the small intestine, since the amount of bacteria increases but it's not as protected as the large intestine. When you eat gelatin with something fatty, the endotoxin is absorbed earlier, isn't it? Does it make any difference?

 

[Xisca]

When you eat gelatin with something fatty, the endotoxin is absorbed earlier, isn't it?

Is it? Why?