Elevated PUFA In Blood Drive Metabolic Syndrome And Diabetes

[Obi-wan]

This is what I find very interesting- The acetyl moiety is a component of many organic compounds, including acetic acid, the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, acetyl-CoA, acetylcysteine, acetaminophen (also known as paracetamol), and acetylsalicylic acid (better known as aspirin).

So my new combo is ACV/BS/Aspirin...

 

[haidut]

All vinegar is acetic acid...any vinegar plus baking soda will create acetate...ACV/BS creates potassium acetate

Hmm, I am not sure that is true. ACV has been shown to be a mix of malic, lactic and acetic acid, but it is definitely not all acetic acid. In fact, I think the malic acid may be the dominant one. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, so mixing it with ACV will produce sodium malate, sodium lactate, and sodium acetate. Not sure where the potassium is coming from to form potassium acetate as you mentioned...
Anyways, I think ACV is great, especially when mixed with BS. As long as it provides benefits the exact composition probably does not matter.
The acetyl moiety in aspirin is very important. It is what allows aspirin to block prostaglandin synthesis. However, it is probably not very good when used to create steroid esters. See below.
Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone
"...It is probably partly the acetate group in the medroxyprogesterone acetate molecule which makes it bind firmly to receptors, yet causes it to block the enzymes which would normally be involved in progesterone metabolism. (I think testosterone, even, might be a safer progestin than medroxyprogesterone acetate.) Pregnenolone acetate similarly blocks the enzymes which normally metabolize pregnenolone. (12) In aspirin, it has been found that it is the acetyl group which (by a free radical action) blocks an enzyme involved in prostaglandin synthesis. "

 

[Travis]

Right, but you said ACV, which I am assuming stands for "apple cider vinegar". That one contains malic acid, so if you combine with baking soda (BS) you will get sodium malate, not sodium acetate.

Apple juice contains malic acid, yet the Acetobacter species used in ACV production produces its eponymous carboxylate. Acetobacter's ethanol dehydrogenase synthesizes acetate via ethanol, which had existed previously apple cider from an initial Saccharomyces fermentation.

 

[haidut]

Apple juice contains malic acid, yet the Acetobacter species used in ACV production produces its eponymous carboxylate. Acetobacter's ethanol dehydrogenase synthesizes acetate via ethanol, which had existed previously apple cider from an initial Saccharomyces fermentation.

Thanks. Alos, see my other post above. ACV apparently contains a mix of malic, acetic and lactic acids but I am having trouble findings reliable sources listing the breakdown and the percentage of each in a given volume. If you have a source listing the breakdown of each acid please post. I am interested to see how high the lactic acid is, as the one produced by bacteria is apparently even more metabolism-inhibiting than the one our cells produce.

 

[CLASH]

With all of this in mind, would a decent summary/ strategy to protect against the PUFA of edible fats, such as the below be correct: @haidut @Travis

1) 10:1 SAFA:PUFA in diet

2) keep PUFA < 4g/2000kcal

3) High stearic acid/ Low PUFA fats
(To displace arachidonic acid and saturate tissues)
•beef tallow
•cocoa butter

4) High MCT/ Low PUFA fats
•coconut oil
-For coconut oil, it seems quite a few people have issues with it, specifically relating to digestion and the skin, can you guys speak to this? Could it be herx related? Possibly allergy promoting?
Dietary Fatty Acids Directly Impact Central Nervous System Autoimmunity via the Small Intestine - ScienceDirect

5) High SCFA/ Low PUFA fats
•dairy fat
-For butter/ ghee, there seems to be a high concentration of steroid hormones, do you guys think this is an issue?

6) Vit E to protect against stored PUFA

7) Aspirin to protect against PUFA metabolites

8) High lean muscle mass to oxidize PUFA present

9) Avoidance of excess iron/ phlebotomy to avoid lipofuscin formation

 

[haidut]

With all of this in mind, would a decent summary/ strategy to protect against the PUFA of edible fats, such as the below be correct: @haidut @Travis

1) 10:1 SAFA:PUFA in diet

2) keep PUFA < 4g/2000kcal

3) High stearic acid/ Low PUFA fats
(To displace arachidonic acid and saturate tissues)
•beef tallow
•cocoa butter

4) High MCT/ Low PUFA fats
•coconut oil
-For coconut oil, it seems quite a few people have issues with it, specifically relating to digestion and the skin, can you guys speak to this? Could it be herx related? Possibly allergy promoting?
Dietary Fatty Acids Directly Impact Central Nervous System Autoimmunity via the Small Intestine - ScienceDirect

5) High SCFA/ Low PUFA fats
•dairy fat
-For butter/ ghee, there seems to be a high concentration of steroid hormones, do you guys think this is an issue?

6) Vit E to protect against stored PUFA

7) Aspirin to protect against PUFA metabolites

8) High lean muscle mass to oxidize PUFA present

9) Avoidance of excess iron/ phlebotomy to avoid lipofuscin formation

I would add to that list some niacinamide as it helps the liver either metabolize or excrete whatever fats reach it, as well as enough sugar in the diet as it help the liver with the glucuronidation process. Actually, the entire B complex of vitamins has a vital role in protection from PUFA's effects, but B1, B3, and B6 have especially important roles. Btw, vitamin E can also directly inactivate PUFA floating in the bloodstream, so its role is much more beneficial than simply protecting against the peroxidation of PUFA. As far as I know, the alpha tocopherol isomer is much more active in this PUFA deactivation process compared to the other 3 isomers but they can also do it to some extent.
Vitamin E: Estrogen antagonist, energy promoter, and anti-inflammatory
"...One possibly crucial protective effect of vitamin E against the polyunsaturated fatty acids that hasn't been explored is the direct destruction of linolenic and linoleic acid. It is known that bacterial vitamin E is involved in the saturation of unsaturated fatty acids, and it is also known that intestinal bacteria turn linoleic and linolenic acids into the fully saturated stearic acid."

"...Besides antagonizing some of the end effects of the toxic fatty acids, vitamin E inhibits lipolysis, lowering the concentration of free fatty acids (the opposite of estrogen’s effect), and it also binds to, and inactivates, free fatty acids. The long saturated carbon chain is very important for its full functioning, and this saturated chain might allow it to serve as a substitute for the omega -9 fats, from which the Mead acid is formed. The unsaturated tocotrienols have hardly been tested for the spectrum of true vitamin E activity, and animal studies have suggested that it may be toxic, since it caused liver enlargement."

 

[Obi-wan]

Thanks. Alos, see my other post above. ACV apparently contains a mix of malic, acetic and lactic acids but I am having trouble findings reliable sources listing the breakdown and the percentage of each in a given volume. If you have a source listing the breakdown of each acid please post. I am interested to see how high the lactic acid is, as the one produced by bacteria is apparently even more metabolism-inhibiting than the one our cells produce.

Vinegar is a liquid consisting of about 5–20% acetic acid (CH3COOH), water (H2O) -Wikipedia

ACV has 73 mgs of potassium per 100 grams

It is made by crushing apples and squeezing out the liquid. Bacteria and yeast are added to the liquid to start the alcoholic fermentation process, and the sugars are turned into alcohol. In a second fermentation process, the alcohol is converted into vinegar by acetic acid-forming bacteria (acetobacter). Acetic acid and malic acid give vinegar its sour taste.

The salts and esters of malic acid are known as malates. The malate anion is an intermediate in the citric acid cycle. - interesting...

 

[Obi-wan]

Acids in Apple Cider Vinegar
Apple cider vinegar is made by pressing raw apples and allowing the extracted juice to ferment. As with raw apples, apple cider vinegar is a rich source of acid -- especially acetic acid. Acetic acid may help keep blood sugar levels and insulin response in check. Along with acetic acid, apple cider vinegar contains citric, lactic and malic acids.

Also: ACV contains vitamins (B1, B2, B6, and C), minerals (magnesium, potassium, and phosphorus and calcium and iron in small amounts), nonvolatile organic acids such as tartaric acid, citric acid, malic acid and lactic acids, and polyphenolic compounds like galic acid, catechin, caffeic acid and ferulic acid.

 

[Obi-wan]

The most common salt of the bicarbonate ion is sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3, which is commonly known as baking soda. When heated or exposed to an acid such as acetic acid (vinegar), sodium bicarbonate releases carbon dioxide


All vinegar is acetic acid...any vinegar plus baking soda will create acetate...ACV/BS creates potassium acetate...

Correction: you get sodium acetate

 

[yerrag]

Correction: you get sodium acetate

How much BS do you mix with ACV? I'm currently drinking a glass of water first thing in the morning mixed with 2 tsp ACV and 2 teaspoons of sugar.

 

[haidut]

Vinegar is a liquid consisting of about 5–20% acetic acid (CH3COOH), water (H2O) -Wikipedia

ACV has 73 mgs of potassium per 100 grams

It is made by crushing apples and squeezing out the liquid. Bacteria and yeast are added to the liquid to start the alcoholic fermentation process, and the sugars are turned into alcohol. In a second fermentation process, the alcohol is converted into vinegar by acetic acid-forming bacteria (acetobacter). Acetic acid and malic acid give vinegar its sour taste.

The salts and esters of malic acid are known as malates. The malate anion is an intermediate in the citric acid cycle. - interesting...

Thanks, but that doesn't mention how much lactic and malic acid are in there, except mentioning that ACV contains them. I am interested in percentages, as I suspect ACV to have significant amount of malic acid, probably equal to the amount of acetic acid. If you try drinking wine vinegar, which is only acetic acid and compare that to ACV you will see that former is next to impossible to drink even diluted while the second one has a much more mellow taste, and somewhat fruity. I believe it is the malic acid that is making the ACV more palatable.

 

[yerrag]

How much BS do you mix with ACV? I'm currently drinking a glass of water first thing in the morning mixed with 2 tsp ACV and 2 teaspoons of sugar.

1/8 tsp baking soda

 

[Obi-wan]

1/8 tsp baking soda

1/4 teaspoon BS to 2 tablespoons of ACV in 6 ounces of water

 

[Travis]

The concentration of malic acid changes little throughout the yeast fermentation—i.e. from apple juice to apple cider—starting with ~7250·mg/L and ending around 6000·mg/L. The final concentration of malic acid corresponds to ~6·mg/mL:

The study that I found on the organic acids contained in vinegar had determined only monocarboxylic acids, or short-chained 'fatty' acids, ranging from acetic to lauric. In the chart below, the acetic acid concentration is given in the column designating its number of carbons (2C).

Acetic acid concentrations found in vinegar are far in excess of malic acid concentrations found in apple cider. Unless additional malic acid is created by Acetobacter aceti during the second fermentation—i.e. apple cider to apple vinegar—or further catabolized, I think it's fair to assume that it's outnumbered by acetic roughly 10∶1.

[1] Zhang. "Determination of organic acids evolution during apple cider fermentation using an improved HPLC analysis method." European Food Research & Technology (2008)
[2] Yang. "A rapid gas chromatographic method for direct determination of short-chain (C2–C12) volatile organic acids in foods." Food Chemistry (2001)​

 

[haidut]

The concentration of malic acid changes little throughout the yeast fermentation—i.e. from apple juice to apple cider—starting with ~7250·mg/L and ending around 6000·mg/L. The final concentration of malic acid corresponds to ~6·mg/mL:

View attachment 10048

The study that I found on the organic acids contained in vinegar had determined only monocarboxylic acids, or short-chained 'fatty' acids, ranging from acetic to lauric. In the chart below, the acetic acid concentration is given in the column designating its number of carbons (2C).

View attachment 10049

Acetic acid concentrations found in vinegar are far in excess of malic acid concentrations found in apple cider. Unless additional malic acid is created by Acetobacter aceti during the second fermentation—i.e. apple cider to apple vinegar—or further catabolized, I think it's fair to assume that it's outnumbered by acetic roughly 10∶1.

[1] Zhang. "Determination of organic acids evolution during apple cider fermentation using an improved HPLC analysis method." European Food Research & Technology (2008)
[2] Yang. "A rapid gas chromatographic method for direct determination of short-chain (C2–C12) volatile organic acids in foods." Food Chemistry (2001)​

Thanks, very informative. What do you think makes ACV rather drinkable (with minor dilution) while wine vinegar is hard to stomach in the same amounts and dilutions as ACV?

 

[Travis]

Thanks, very informative. What do you think makes ACV rather drinkable (with minor dilution) while wine vinegar is hard to stomach in the same amounts and dilutions as ACV?

I don't know, but I the wine vinegar that I have I prefer to apple vinegar. I do realize that Balsamic vinegar is aged in wooden barrels, but have yet to try the un-aged wine vinegar. I do see it at the store, but have yet to buy it. I think I might give it a go next time I'm at the store, unless the consensus here is that it's 'not even worth considering.'

I see all vinegars as equivalent in probiotic potential—assuming they're unpasteurized, of course—because they all have the same species of bacteria, yet there must still be significant differences in composition that are determined by the fruit used. I do know in wine tasters give terpenes special consideration, yet I think you'd have to expect a different organic acid profile as well. Don't the di- and tri-carboxylic acids—i.e. citrate, oxalate, malate—contribute to the 'tart' taste?

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks, very informative. What do you think makes ACV rather drinkable (with minor dilution) while wine vinegar is hard to stomach in the same amounts and dilutions as ACV?

It's said to have positive properties too (bile flow?). @Travis do you know what is removed when filtering the apple juice or apple cider vinegar until it's a crystal clear liquid? Some people reported good effects on digestion with the cloudy ones, I do report canker sores from the non-filtered varieties (Ray suggested there's fungus inside I think).

 

[Travis]

It's said to have positive properties too (bile flow?). @Travis do you know what is removed when filtering the apple juice or apple cider vinegar until it's a crystal clear liquid? Some people reported good effects on digestion with the cloudy ones, I do report canker sores from the non-filtered varieties (Ray suggested there's fungus inside I think).

Yeasts are of course present at the cider stage, yet they are all destroyed—or at least greatly reduced in number—as the pH falls. Those long stringy aggregates could only be strands of proteins and/or polysaccharides, and I find them reminiscent of what you get after dropping egg white into boiling water. I think it would be reasonable to suppose that they are strands of proteins modified with β-linked polysaccharides, such as chitin, because were they anything else you'd suppose they could be degraded by the Acetobacter. Since similar miasmic strands are found in kombucha and are ostensibly made near-entirely from sucrose, I would assume them to be the aggregated cell wall remnants of recently departed yeast.

 

[haidut]

Don't the di- and tri-carboxylic acids—i.e. citrate, oxalate, malate—contribute to the 'tart' taste?

Yes, they do and this is what I see as difference in taste between regular wine vinegar and ACV. The wine vinegar tastes like pure acetic acid and is not very pleasant taste while the ACV has that tartness that is quite pleasant and I think is due to malic, tartaric and other acids that seem to be absent from the wine vinegar (at least the filtered type).

 

[Obi-wan]

Hmm, I am not sure that is true. ACV has been shown to be a mix of malic, lactic and acetic acid, but it is definitely not all acetic acid. In fact, I think the malic acid may be the dominant one. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, so mixing it with ACV will produce sodium malate, sodium lactate, and sodium acetate. Not sure where the potassium is coming from to form potassium acetate as you mentioned...
Anyways, I think ACV is great, especially when mixed with BS. As long as it provides benefits the exact composition probably does not matter.
The acetyl moiety in aspirin is very important. It is what allows aspirin to block prostaglandin synthesis. However, it is probably not very good when used to create steroid esters. See below.
Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone
"...It is probably partly the acetate group in the medroxyprogesterone acetate molecule which makes it bind firmly to receptors, yet causes it to block the enzymes which would normally be involved in progesterone metabolism. (I think testosterone, even, might be a safer progestin than medroxyprogesterone acetate.) Pregnenolone acetate similarly blocks the enzymes which normally metabolize pregnenolone. (12) In aspirin, it has been found that it is the acetyl group which (by a free radical action) blocks an enzyme involved in prostaglandin synthesis. "

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Medroxyprogesterone acetate




Medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA), also known as depot medroxyprogesterone acetate (DMPA) and sold under the brand name Depo-Provera among others, is a hormonal medication of the progestin type.[9][4] It is used as a method of birth control and as a part of menopausal hormone therapy.[9][4] It is also used to treat endometriosis, abnormal uterine bleeding, abnormal sexuality in males, and certain types of cancer, among other indications.[9] The medication is available both alone and in combination with an estrogen.[10][11] It is taken by mouth or by injection into a muscle or fat.[9]

Common side effects include menstrual disturbances such as absence of periods, abdominal pain, and headaches.[9] More serious side effects include bone loss, blood clots, allergic reactions, and liver problems.[9] Use is not recommended during pregnancy as it may harm the baby.[9] MPA is an artificial progestogen, and as such activates the progesterone receptor, the biological target of progesterone.[4] It also has weak androgenic and glucocorticoid activity but no other important hormonal activity.[4] Due to its progestogenic activity, MPA decreases the body's release of gonadotropins and can suppress sex hormone levels.[12] It works as a form of birth control by preventing ovulation. - Wikipedia

completlety different acetate IMO. Depo-Provera?...pharma drug...