Acetic acid (vinegar) as a source of energy?

[EnergeticLeo]

This might be a stupid question but why is that we can't use vinegar / acetic acid as a dietary energy source?

After all, after carbs have been broken down into pyruvate, pyruvate is converted to acetyl-CoA which is then fed into the Krebs cycle as fuel.

Peat has written about how butyric acid (a carboxylic acid like acetic acid, but with a slightly longer carbon chain) is a potent stimulator of the metabolic rate, and has been used to treat cancer in the past. The only problem was that it smelled so bad people patients had to use tongs to handle it!

Acetic acid, like butyric acid, is also a short-chain fatty acid.
Coconut oil is protective because it has a high concentration of short- and medium-chain saturated fatty acids, as I understand it.

I had some oxtail broth yesterday, which had some vinegar in it - and afterwards I felt significantly warmer. I know the broth has tonnes of other good stuff like glycine, and minerals including lots of salt, but it did get me wondering about the vinegar.

 

[Makrosky]

Absolutely, and not only that. Vinegar is also a good disinfectant for the digestive system.

You can also mix it with baking soda, it is a very good combo.

 

[EnergeticLeo]

Ah yes the baking soda is a good idea - it can quell the acidity and potential irritation to the digestive tract in higher amounts.
Was if one were to ingest larger amounts of vinegar?

 

[EnergeticLeo]

I also really really like the taste of vinegar added to various foods e.g. carrot salad, broth. Maybe that has implications for its metabolism in my system.

 

[EnergeticLeo]

Just found this Vinegar consumption can attenuate postprandial glucose and insulin responses; a systematic review and meta-analysis of clinical trials

Reducing post-meal glucose and insulin suggests a pro-metabolic effect.

 

[Makrosky]

Ah yes the baking soda is a good idea - it can quell the acidity and potential irritation to the digestive tract in higher amounts.
Was if one were to ingest larger amounts of vinegar?

Look for the thread on the forum. I think it was called sodium acetate or similar. All the info about it is there.

And please share your experience if you try it. I don't even remember why I decided to not use it anymore, I think because of the taste, but it worked good.

 

[EnergeticLeo]

Look for the thread on the forum. I think it was called sodium acetate or similar. All the info about it is there.

And please share your experience if you try it. I don't even remember why I decided to not use it anymore, I think because of the taste, but it worked good.

Thanks I've found it - will check it out.

 

[BRMarshall]

Thanks I've found it - will check it out.

Good topic question....share the link please!

 

[Michael Mohn]

All metabolic end products from bacteria will trigger an inflammatory response due to being agonists on the TLDR4 receptor. Vinegar, alcohol, d-lactic acid, LPS, other endotoxins, etc. In small amounts they can have an antibacterial effect in the intestine but if you go overboard you could promote inflammation.

 

[EnergeticLeo]

Has Anyone Tried Sodium Acetate ? (for SIBO?)

Hi guys, I don't know how I ended up in a blog called "F*ck portion control". It turns out it's the blog of a forum user called Nathan. I think it's him because of his excitement about taurine. I remember him posting it on this forum a couple of years ago or so. I'm glad he's alive and better...

raypeatforum.com

 

[EnergeticLeo]

All metabolic end products from bacteria will trigger an inflammatory response due to being agonists on the TLDR4 receptor. Vinegar, alcohol, d-lactic acid, LPS, other endotoxins, etc. In small amounts they can have an antibacterial effect in the intestine but if you go overboard you could promote inflammation.

That's very interesting.
So acetate (as an acetyl group) within the cell is fine, but when it's outside the cell, e.g. in the gut, then it can create problems in higher amounts.

 

[EnergeticLeo]

All metabolic end products from bacteria will trigger an inflammatory response due to being agonists on the TLDR4 receptor. Vinegar, alcohol, d-lactic acid, LPS, other endotoxins, etc. In small amounts they can have an antibacterial effect in the intestine but if you go overboard you could promote inflammation.

Does butyric acid activate the TLR4 receptor?

I suspect it wouldn't because the body ferments fibre into butyrate in the gut, along with other short-chain fatty acids.

 

[Michael Mohn]

That's very interesting.
So acetate (as an acetyl group) within the cell is fine, but when it's outside the cell, e.g. in the gut, then it can create problems in higher amounts.

Acetate are salts of acetic acid like Sodium acetate.

An Acetyl group is a functional group that can dramatically (or not) change how molecules, mostly organic molecules will behave, in particular in the human body, for example acetyl salicylic acid aka Aspirin.

 

[Michael Mohn]

Does butyric acid activate the TLR4 receptor?

I suspect it wouldn't because the body ferments fibre into butyrate in the gut, along with other short-chain fatty acids.

Short chain fatty acids are antibacterial and in high amounts anti metabolic due to the Randle cycle but I don't think they activate the TLDR4 receptor.

 

[Sitaruîm]

I drench my salads with red wine vinegar (aceto balsamico) and olive oil, they are delicious that way.

 

[GTW]

SCFA are produced by the gut microbiome fermenting "dietary fiber" and used by the cells lining the gut for energy. Butyrate, lactate, propionate, acetate are key SCFA. Butyrate said to be the preferred energy source for those cells including Gut Associated Lymph Tissue, GALT. Eating SCFA won't contribute much to GALT because they won't get there.
Butyric acid is the smell of vomit. However, in foods like butter and cheeses where it is primarily in triglyceride form we appreciate a moderate amount for flavor. Butyrate is named for butter where it was first identified. Diacetyl and the two ketone bodies are similar 4-carbon molecules, C-4 not to be confused with C4.
Ruminant energy metabolism is largely dependent on SCFA production by microbes. They are foregut fermentors, we are hindgut fermentors.

 

[Makrosky]

I drench my salads with red wine vinegar (aceto balsamico) and olive oil, they are delicious that way.

Me too.

 

[EnergeticLeo]

SCFA are produced by the gut microbiome fermenting "dietary fiber" and used by the cells lining the gut for energy. Butyrate, lactate, propionate, acetate are key SCFA. Butyrate said to be the preferred energy source for those cells including Gut Associated Lymph Tissue, GALT. Eating SCFA won't contribute much to GALT because they won't get there.
Butyric acid is the smell of vomit. However, in foods like butter and cheeses where it is primarily in triglyceride form we appreciate a moderate amount for flavor. Butyrate is named for butter where it was first identified. Diacetyl and the two ketone bodies are similar 4-carbon molecules, C-4 not to be confused with C4.
Ruminant energy metabolism is largely dependent on SCFA production by microbes. They are foregut fermentors, we are hindgut fermentors.

very interesting

 

[EnergeticLeo]

Short chain fatty acids are antibacterial and in high amounts anti metabolic due to the Randle cycle but I don't think they activate the TLDR4 receptor.

yep makes sense

 

[Andy316]

I read that collagen and gelatin gets converted to SCFA in your gut. Any idea which amino acid is responsible?