A Guide To Phenibut

[Dopamine]

Taurine is showing to increase prolactin in some cases, lysine is showing to increase cortisol.

Where have you seen that?

I find it interesting that lysine inhibits 5HT1A and 5HT2A because LSD has very strong affinity for both and probaly inhibits them as well. I found the effects of high dose lysine to be almost identical to the afterglow of a LSD trip. I think Lysine could be a potential substitute for LSD microdosing and ergot derivatives for these reasons. Obviously they are different but have some similar mechanisms of action.

http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... X/abstract
"...L-lysine (0.8 mmol/dL) inhibited serotonin binding to guinea pig corpus striatum 5-HT4 receptors by 9.7% but had no effect on other serotonin receptors. At 100-fold higher concentration (80 mmol/dL), which are non-physiologic, lysine blocked >40% of serotonin binding to 5-HT4 receptors but also inhibited binding to 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B. Binding results were compared to effects of L-lysine on serotonin-evoked ileal contractions. By itself, L-lysine had no contractile action on huinea pig ileal segments indicating a lack of serotonin receptor agonism. Conversely, L-lysine at a concentration (0.7 mmol/dL) similar to that which blocked 5-HT4 receptors reduced serotonin-evoked ileal contractions by 35% confirming its action as a serotonin receptor antagonist. A related amino acid, L-leucine did not modify serotonin-elicited contractions showing the specificity of L-lysine actions."

LSD binding affinities:
Binding affinities of LSD for various receptors. The lower the dissociation constant (Ki), the more strongly LSD binds to that receptor (i.e. with higher affinity). The horizontal line represents an approximate value for human plasma concentrations of LSD, and hence, receptor affinities that are above the line are unlikely to be involved in LSD's effect.

Note LSD has strongest affinity for 5HT1A and very strong affinity for 5HT2A

 

[Drareg]

If you type into the search it should come up.

Interesting lysine does that, does have it curb adrenalin would be the other question.

 

[TheHound]

can any weightlifters chime in on how phenibut affects your lifting performance?

 

[Dopamine]

can any weightlifters chime in on how phenibut affects your lifting performance?

Anything with anti- depressant properties will have a positive effect on physical performance. Navy seals talk about how boot camp is more about overcoming mental barriers then physical ones, athletes will often tell you the same about exercise. If phenibut improves your mood then it will improve exercise performance. I have found it generally improves my powerlifting performance... probaly not significantly though. Phenibut also can improve sleep and lower stress which has a huge effect on testosterone levels and performance.

 

[TheHound]

Anything with anti- depressant properties will have a positive effect on physical performance. Navy seals talk about how boot camp is more about overcoming mental barriers then physical ones, athletes will often tell you the same about exercise. If phenibut improves your mood then it will improve exercise performance. I have found it generally improves my powerlifting performance... probaly not significantly though. Phenibut also can improve sleep and lower stress which has a huge effect on testosterone levels and performance.

interesting. I was often thinking that the positive mental effects of the substance may vastly overcome the small negative physical effects

 

[Dopamine]

interesting. I was often thinking that the positive mental effects of the substance may vastly overcome the small negative physical effects

I think you can avoid most/all of the negative physical effects if you
a) only take phenibut once in a while and keep doses under 750mg
b) take phenibut more often but keep doses under 400mg per day and use an intelligent cycle/taper schedule to slowly wean off rather than quitting cold turkey

In my experience 250-300mg once daily can have strong anti-stress/anti anxiety effects with minimal risk of withdrawals or significant tolerance build up.

I should say 500-750mg 1x daily gave me insomnia and slightly depressed mood when I quit cold turkey.

 

[Greg says]

The last time I used Phenibut I fractured my skull (really enhances alcohol). I tried 500mg a few days ago and it was very pleasant. I was able to think without the usual speeded up anxiety. I would be unstoppable in my life if I felt this way all the time. That is the problem, I just wanted to take it again the next day. It is true what RP says .."it is that an organism in an unstable state perceiving the availability of something which promises to partially restore the desired stability." Metabolism is one thing, but also I believe our bodies are also like car engines and all are tuned at a certain speed/vibration/frequency. My engine is perfectly tuned for movement (flight response) but it is terrible for just sitting down to read. I would love to be able to just tune mine down a tad.

 

[Dopamine]

The last time I used Phenibut I fractured my skull (really enhances alcohol). I tried 500mg a few days ago and it was very pleasant. I was able to think without the usual speeded up anxiety. I would be unstoppable in my life if I felt this way all the time. That is the problem, I just wanted to take it again the next day. It is true what RP says .."it is that an organism in an unstable state perceiving the availability of something which promises to partially restore the desired stability." Metabolism is one thing, but also I believe our bodies are also like car engines and all are tuned at a certain speed/vibration/frequency. My engine is perfectly tuned for movement (flight response) but it is terrible for just sitting down to read. I would love to be able to just tune mine down a tad.

View attachment 2726

It certainly has potential for addiction and people need to be well informed and be careful.

I would be unstoppable in my life if I felt this way all the time.

I know exactly how you feel.

I think constantly raising the dose of phenibut is what really becomes a problem. People need to set an upper limit for long term dosing that they will never cross under any circumstances. I am going to take 250-300mg everyday with no intention of going higher. I probaly wouldn't recommend people take any more than 400mg daily long term. At 300mg the anti-stress/anti anxiety effects are still significant for me but not hypo-manic like higher doses.

What you could do is take low dose phenibut (250-300mg) 5 days on 2 days off to assess if you develop withdrawals on cessation. At these doses withdrawals are unlikely... or will probaly be small/short lived. Then you need to maintain this dose and not push higher.

Alternatively you could just use it once in a while to combat acute stress.

 

[Drareg]

Ray Peat mentioned it takes generations in some cases to change excessive methylation, he mentions the study on rats where they gave an enriching environment and it did it quicker.
In the same talk he mentions some of the Caines like novocaine for extreme issues from childhood,obviously the environment in the modern world is not similar to the what the rats got hence his novocaine insight.

They act as potent demthylation agents, I think a theory might be you demethylate your dna,throwing off marks from childhood/traumatic experience and then you push on with diet,thyroid and other less potent substances,at this point it may be possible to stop the novocaine?
I'm guessing at some point this is what LSD will be shown to do on top of what we know already, it's effects seemingly lingering for days/weeks. It may be possible to achieve the same with a novocaine strategy, a few days relieve without withdrawel.
I'm not sure the hdac inhibitors like phenibut could do this,they are short term.

Incidently mitolipin has alpha adrenergic blocking effects,it's mild but I noticed it.

 

[Makrosky]

Ray Peat mentioned it takes generations in some cases to change excessive methylation, he mentions the study on rats where they gave an enriching environment and it did it quicker.
In the same talk he mentions some of the Caines like novocaine for extreme issues from childhood,obviously the environment in the modern world is not similar to the what the rats got hence his novocaine insight.

They act as potent demthylation agents, I think a theory might be you demethylate your dna,throwing off marks from childhood/traumatic experience and then you push on with diet,thyroid and other less potent substances,at this point it may be possible to stop the novocaine?
I'm guessing at some point this is what LSD will be shown to do on top of what we know already, it's effects seemingly lingering for days/weeks. It may be possible to achieve the same with a novocaine strategy, a few days relieve without withdrawel.
I'm not sure the hdac inhibitors like phenibut could do this,they are short term.

Incidently mitolipin has alpha adrenergic blocking effects,it's mild but I noticed it.

Interesting hypothesis....

There's a therapy called "Neural Therapy" where they inject procaine (structurally similar to novocaine) in places of the body where you previosly had trauma. They argue something like the body remembers a trauma in those places and creates energetic blockages that disturb free flow of energy. I think they also claim procaine can re-stabilize cell membranes or something like that. I'll ask a couple of MDs I know they do this therapy and try to see if they can provide more technical information on what the -caines do.

I tried some years ago an IV injection of procaine (not the same as neural therapy) and I remember it gave me a very warm and pleasant and relaxed anxiety-free sensation for a few days. No withdrawals or anything. I wish I could do it now because I think I do now have more knowledge to understand if a substances relaxes you by upping metabolism or lowering it or it's a sedative.

 

[Makrosky]

Where have you seen that?

I find it interesting that lysine inhibits 5HT1A and 5HT2A because LSD has very strong affinity for both and probaly inhibits them as well. I found the effects of high dose lysine to be almost identical to the afterglow of a LSD trip. I think Lysine could be a potential substitute for LSD microdosing and ergot derivatives for these reasons. Obviously they are different but have some similar mechanisms of action.

Hmmm ... I've tried both and in my experience L-Lysine is very different from LSD.

How much lysine is what you say "a high dose" ? The maximum I tried was 3 grams at once.

 

[Makrosky]

Anybody know of anything else worth trying that has no severe dependence that can stop adrenaline?

Tianeptine

 

[Dopamine]

Hmmm ... I've tried both and in my experience L-Lysine is very different from LSD.

How much lysine is what you say "a high dose" ? The maximum I tried was 3 grams at once.

They both hit some of the same receptors so some of the 5HT inhibition feels similar... My stomach feels amazing after psychedelics- it is the opposite of feeling bloated and my mood is improved. This is the effect I was alluding to.

But no I agree lysine is not a replacement for LSD. I usually use 1 gram- that's around where the effects seem to max out for me. I am going to experiment with 1g lysine + 20g ginger. Ginger is a 5HT3 antagonist like ondansetron so I think it would synergize well with lysine and may be an effective anti-depressant combo.

 

[Drareg]

Tianeptine

I know Peat mentions it,does it have opioid effects in some way? Induces mild euphoria? Would this be good longterm?

I was thinking about a procaine protocol, your experience tempts me for science and all.
It's only worth doing if it's an LSD type scenario, 3-4 times per year possibly weekly, I'm yet to do lsd but if you get the same effect without the world dissolving it may be more practical.

Demethylating is unwinding ,as above so below.

 

[Makrosky]

They both hit some of the same receptors so some of the 5HT inhibition feels similar... My stomach feels amazing after psychedelics- it is the opposite of feeling bloated and my mood is improved. This is the effect I was alluding to.

But no I agree lysine is not a replacement for LSD. I usually use 1 gram- that's around where the effects seem to max out for me. I am going to experiment with 1g lysine + 20g ginger. Ginger is a 5HT3 antagonist like ondansetron so I think it would synergize well with lysine and may be an effective anti-depressant combo.

Hey there,

Just to make one thing clear : just because two substances "hit" the same receptors doesn't mean they do the same thing.

Yes Lysine works good for stomach for me, gotta try that again and see how it goes. I also feel good on the stomach with psychedelics but only AFTER the trip. Specially at the beginning I normally have some stomach discomfort, not necessarly painful.

You take the lysine on an empty stomach ?

How are you going to prepare the ginger ? I tried ginger juice looking for the ondansetron effects. I can't remember now how many grams of fresh ginger I juiced but I drank something like a tablespoon of juice. I read it on a study that compared ondansteron with ginger juice. I think it worked because it immediately knocked me out and puted me to sleep. I woke up after 2 hours with a bad headache. I was running on stress hormones 100% by that time and also had very high serotonin levels I guess, so that explains. The knockout seemed like the first time I tried 2mg cypro. Now it would be different I guess since I've been lowering serotonin. The only thing is that I absolutely hate ginger taste, it almost made me puke and believe me I can stand very gross tastes like tianeptine powder, magnesium glycinate powder, etc. but fresh ginger... no way. So I couldn't experiment further.

Please tell us how you feel on the ginger and how are you going to prepare it!

 

[Makrosky]

I know Peat mentions it,does it have opioid effects in some way? Induces mild euphoria? Would this be good longterm?

I was thinking about a procaine protocol, your experience tempts me for science and all.
It's only worth doing if it's an LSD type scenario, 3-4 times per year possibly weekly, I'm yet to do lsd but if you get the same effect without the world dissolving it may be more practical.

Demethylating is unwinding ,as above so below.

Tianeptine : Yes it has opioid effects but not to all receptors. Yes it can induce mild euphoria but to me it did only the first two or three (literally) times I took it. After that, no euphoria. I don't know if it would be good longterm. The thing is that from the "Peat approved substances" (goshhh I hate that!) I've found it's the one that lowers stress the best. By far. But that's my personal experience. Do some more research or feel free to ask more. Greg also has written a lot about tianeptine. I think Such_Saturation has used it for a while also.

The procaine shot I tried was IV so I don't know if you're into that. A nurse friend of mine did it for me but I felt very bad, like a junkie. I know I shouldn't because it's a prejudice but... it's a big psychological barrier. I won't do that myself. If a MD does it for me, then ok. The effects were very good anyway. It would be more like doing it once per month rather than 4 per year because the effects faded away after 2-4 days, can't remember exactly.

You don't get the same effects than the ones from LSD. First, are we talking about microdoses or full doses ? I'm talking about microdoses. A microdose won't dissolve your ego nor show you the real nature of the universe. They don't feel the same. LSD does much more for the mood, desire to explore, enjoy things, feel love, etc. Procaine was just warm comfortable sensation within my body. Very pronounced, that is. But the procaine as I said I tried it a few years ago and my metabolism was probably different and my perceptions also. I guess you'll have to find for yourself and please come back and tell us about it!

 

[Dopamine]

Hey there,

Just to make one thing clear : just because two substances "hit" the same receptors doesn't mean they do the same thing.

Yes Lysine works good for stomach for me, gotta try that again and see how it goes. I also feel good on the stomach with psychedelics but only AFTER the trip. Specially at the beginning I normally have some stomach discomfort, not necessarly painful.

You take the lysine on an empty stomach ?

How are you going to prepare the ginger ? I tried ginger juice looking for the ondansetron effects. I can't remember now how many grams of fresh ginger I juiced but I drank something like a tablespoon of juice. I read it on a study that compared ondansteron with ginger juice. I think it worked because it immediately knocked me out and puted me to sleep. I woke up after 2 hours with a bad headache. I was running on stress hormones 100% by that time and also had very high serotonin levels I guess, so that explains. The knockout seemed like the first time I tried 2mg cypro. Now it would be different I guess since I've been lowering serotonin. The only thing is that I absolutely hate ginger taste, it almost made me puke and believe me I can stand very gross tastes like tianeptine powder, magnesium glycinate powder, etc. but fresh ginger... no way. So I couldn't experiment further.

Please tell us how you feel on the ginger and how are you going to prepare it!

I think a tablespoon is a huge dose
Haidut said a teaspoon of ginger juice or 20g of ginger root (wet, not dry weight I think) is a good place to start.

I would take lysine away from other proteins/amino acids because they may compete with its absorption and you may feel less effects... It could also be a good thing to combine lysine with protein because it will compete with arginine and lower nitric oxide... depends what you want- I take it with juice.

There are some interesting "ginger coffee" recipes. you would just steep ginger in coffee for 5-10min I think and add sugar. Apparently it is popular in parts of the world. Also OJ and ginger is supposed to be good.

You can also just plug your nose and slam a shot of pure ginger juice down and chase it with something strong like coffee.

 

[DaveFoster]

You could always, you know, try an antihistamine for anxiety. Used responsibly and conservatively, anything can be therapeutic, particularly alcohol and benzos.

I'd rather not use them unless needed for a specific stressful event, such as public speaking.

The last time I used Phenibut I fractured my skull (really enhances alcohol). I tried 500mg a few days ago and it was very pleasant. I was able to think without the usual speeded up anxiety. I would be unstoppable in my life if I felt this way all the time. That is the problem, I just wanted to take it again the next day. It is true what RP says .."it is that an organism in an unstable state perceiving the availability of something which promises to partially restore the desired stability." Metabolism is one thing, but also I believe our bodies are also like car engines and all are tuned at a certain speed/vibration/frequency. My engine is perfectly tuned for movement (flight response) but it is terrible for just sitting down to read. I would love to be able to just tune mine down a tad.

View attachment 2726

Very interesting reflections. I can relate.

 

[Parsifal]

I know Peat mentions it,does it have opioid effects in some way? Induces mild euphoria? Would this be good longterm?

I was thinking about a procaine protocol, your experience tempts me for science and all.
It's only worth doing if it's an LSD type scenario, 3-4 times per year possibly weekly, I'm yet to do lsd but if you get the same effect without the world dissolving it may be more practical.

Demethylating is unwinding ,as above so below.

I feel good with it but it increases my tendency to have hypnagogic hallucinations so I wonder if it increases oxydation or nitric oxide in some ways...

 

[Dopamine]

For the record I have weaned myself off phenibut with little problems. I'm just going to take it occasionally from here on out.